Arty combos?

[Sgt. Schultz]

After a morning with the search function, and some damn fine reading, I was wondering what folks use for their off/on map arty. For the purpose of this discussion, let's assume combined arms settings in QBs so the off-map arty is only a small part of the purchase, and is therefore backed up by on-map units.

Please feel free to break it down by nationality and battle size, or any way you want to. I see mostly 2K point battles in TCP, so I am using that as a baseline.

Example ... 2K points as German... I am now trying ...

2x 150mm rocket FOs(cheap, they miss a lot, but when they do hit it's harsh)

1x 81mm mortar FO(for smoke or early game targets)

1x 120mm Mortar FO(saved for middle-end game when the enemy is massed for attacks)

I grab an 81mm mortar HT and possibly a stand-alone 81mm mortar or two as well for ATG supression/insta-smoke.

I am not asking for hard and fast rules, just your favorite combos when you have the points to make it happen; as well as the reasoning behind said purchases.

If you go for larger games, instead of listing the whole magilla, just post what your favorite tag-teams are. Which arty compliments its bretheren, and which doesn't? Do you smoke 'em with 81s while the 150s are busy aiming? Do you bring down the wrath of an Angry Pagan God with 3-4 150mm rocket FOs on a single in-LOS TRP? That kind of thing.

I am aware there are a zillion variables to take into account, this is just for what you usually feel will get the best results for the money. For instance, I love the big boomers, but can never seem to justify their hideous expense for the piddlin' ammo load and long aiming times.

You may fire when ready ....

Schultzie

[Sarge Saunders]

For combined arms 2000 points:

American- 4.2" mortars and 155mm.

Devestating but use only on known targets since rounds are more scarce.

British/Canadian- Tougher choices but try the 3" FO and 25 lber FO. I actually love to use the 25 lber since you can sprinkle all game long. Another combination would be 3", 4.2" and 5.5" which gives you even more firepower but targets must be chosen carefully so as not to waste rounds for the 5.5" FO.

Axis- 150mm (most cost-effective killing power for axis IMO) and your choice of either 81mm or 120mm FO.

With all nations, killing power does not occur until > than 105mm. Real certain killing power occurs at 150mm and above. Americans have relatively cheap VT so one could easily justify giving up a mortar FO to make the 105mm or 155mm use VT rounds.

-Sarge

[Redwolf]

In CMBO pricing, the bigger the module the better the price/kills ratio. Generally you want as big as possible.

However, when very competive opponents clash in meeting engagements, they usually fall back to the mortars, and then the biggest mortars, because they need the speed. As a defender, you can use TRPs, but they are not very useful and the big howitzer modules are still slow. As the attacker the slow modules may pay off.

If you can get VT, you have to, the price/effectivity ratio in CMBO enforces it.

As for onboard, the 3" mortar has that crew screwup which makes it very cheap for the large ammo load, a very good choice. Also good as antitank mortars.

[Chad Harrison]

In a QB ME, I will generally bring along atleast one heavy OB mortar battery, and usually only one. My personaly preference is to have more infantry than having more artillery, and then keep your artillery spread out to compensate for their artillery. Generally, for every battery that they purchase, you can get another platoon of vanilla troops. If you are carefull, that can be a great advantage to you.

I really prefer to buy after the one battery, onboard bombardment stuff, ie. mortars, 75mm pack howitzers, ect.

Chad Harrison

[Beta1]

For QB 2000 points as axis I normally take a 150mm FO and a 88mm mortar FO. Basic tactic is to form a block with my infantry to hold the enemy infantry back at 100m-150m then bring down the 150mm arty to break them. The 88mm is used to supress other areas of troops/mortars/guns or provide smoke if needed. I normally have a couple of on board 88mm mortars too for anti-gun/MG duty.

Just as an aside in a battle against the AI (3000 points I think) the AI openned up on one of my AT guns with what looked like about 4 88mm FOs simultaneously (at least there was about 4-8 shells per second coming down). Looks very nasty but still took 2 turns to actually take out the gun. Wouldnt like that on a concentration of troops in a wood though.

[edit - should be 81mm fo Doh!]

[ August 28, 2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Beta1 ]

[xerxes]

Lots of arty, all shapes and sizes but I prefer the faster stuff.

[JasonC]

US - 155s are the best, because they kill better than anything else available for a reasonable cost. One round can take out 15-20 guys with a tree burst in an occupied wood. Keep the mission on 30 second standby with small shifts and you can "snipe" with 4-8 rounds a turn. You can also cancel and re-acquire to save ammo; they are fast enough. 105s are decent (fast and 6 full minutes of fire, which can be useful trying to hold out on defense) and realistically the most common form of support. 4.2s are decent blast and fast, if a bit gamey to take all the time.

Germans - 150s are the best killers, with 170s an alternative (fewer shells, each huge, marginally lower price). Either kills what it hits. But the 120 mortars can be more useful because they are far faster, and also cheaper per FO. The others types aren't great.

Realistically, the 105s would be the most common, but in CM they are much slower than the 120s and not worth a marginally higher price for a few additional shells. 81s would be common realistically, but are underpowered in CM. On defense against greens, maybe, but for most QBs they are a waste. The same is true of the underpowered 75s.

As for German rockets, if you take them take the 210s or 300s (either is about the same effect and cost). The blast of the 150s is too small for the size of their spread pattern. Most units within the beaten field will be untouched, or at most duck for 30-60 seconds. The larger rockets will kill things, since it only takes 1-2 near misses, which rocket inaccuracy can manage. Don't use them exclusively, however, because their pattern is too large and they are an all at once weapon. You will need something to help infantry fighting in contact (typically 120s). A single large rocket FO for a spoiling barrage is a reasonable gambit from time to time, meant mostly to disrupt enemy plans. Other than that, the tube artillery types, with their far greater control, are more practical.

Brits - the best are the 4.5 inch and 5.5 inch FOs. The 3 inch mortars are the best of the light mortars in blast terms, fast, and OK if defending (enemy in the open or woods) and the attackers aren't veterans. Don't take the 25 pdrs - the rate of fire is too low. This is not a marginal thing like German 105s being worse than 120s. It is a case of outright "broken" - the 25s drizzle in so slowly the expensive and large module is practically useless.

And there is not need for the expense of the 7.2s - the 5.5s are much cheaper and will do. The 4.5s are somewhat easier to hit with, because they put down more shells in the same period of time, and they are powerful enough to break things. But the bigger 5.5s will kill rather than break when they do hit. The Brits 4.2 mortars are relatively puny in blast terms, and not worth it in my opinion. Take the 4.5s or 5.5s instead, and put up with the added delay for the added blast.

As for light mortars for smoke, they can do it of course, and their speed is useful for that mission. But my experience is that CM players are far too "smoke happy", and blow too much of their limited artillery budget on masses of smoke, used with limited skill. Sometimes it helps the guy that fires it more than the other guy, sometimes not - but very rarely does it repay the actual cost of an FO as well. Tank and gun/mortar fired smoke is free, by comparison.

Defenders should take TRPs for firing speed. Attackers plan ahead, instead. These are both more practical than only taking medium mortars to get speed, and allow the full use of heavy calibers.

Off map arty should be firing HE at infantry targets. With large calibers. That is the way to make it pay for itself - other ways give at best even exchanges in point cost terms, and often less than that. Instead of trying to mix and match a dozen FO types with a score of artillery missions, just focus on that core mission - clobbering enemy infantry, especially when it bunches up to win firefights with local odds, and especially in woods terrain - and do that one mission well, with large caliber HE.

[skelley]

In a 2K pt game as german I would go with 2 120mm mortars. They have much quicker response times and can pin and kill allowing you to manuever your infantry into position to mop up. You definitely need to use infantry in combo with it as it doesn't have the killing ability that 150mm does. 2 120mm mortars will leave you with 96pts left for arty but I would suggest purchasing more infantry with it instead of arty.

[Sgt. Schultz]

Great responses folks. Thanks.

After playing as the germans ... I found that timing American arty is an art unto itself. I keep dropping spotting rounds too soon and wasting ammo. I used to complain that it took German arty too long ... but it seems easier to walk without wastage than Ami arty now. Those Amis are on the ball, that's for sure. [g]

I am sure it is just a matter of practice...

[Redwolf]

The trick is to target slightly out of LOS, but very near the real point you want to shoot at, and then switch into LOS when it will shoot for effect in that turn. There are no spotting rounds when targetting out of LOS.

Of course, out of LOS targetting doubles the target time, so this sequence is best:

- target with LOS until counter is down so much that spotting round would fall in the next turn

- adjust out of LOS for the turn where spottings rounds would fall

- adjust into LOS again for FFE

You will usually lose one turn or a half of time. That is usually worth it since spotting rounds falling isolated in one turn are very back, since the opponent will pull out.

Of course, nothing beats two spotting rounds of 170mm when your sole intention is to convice the opponent to bail out. If CMBO had a command to abandon guns (to rescue the crew) this would have even better effect.

What has all this to do with reality and realistic play? Well - let's wait for CMBB.

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The trick is to target slightly out of LOS, but very near the real point you want to shoot at, and then switch into LOS when it will shoot for effect in that turn. There are no spotting rounds when targetting out of LOS.

I ditto this. Spotting rounds fall at exactly 1 minute and one-half minute. Avoid those for a turn and the first barrage can be a surprise.

Also it is nice to conduct a "pseudo" Time on Target by coordinating a second (mortar) FO to begin firing on the same turn.

This will pin, make withdrawal slower, and panic those in the target area in addition to effect of the big rounds.

-Sarge

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The trick is to target slightly out of LOS, but very near the real point you want to shoot at, and then switch into LOS when it will shoot for effect in that turn. There are no spotting rounds when targetting out of LOS.

Of course, out of LOS targetting doubles the target time, so this sequence is best:

- target with LOS until counter is down so much that spotting round would fall in the next turn

- adjust out of LOS for the turn where spottings rounds would fall

- adjust into LOS again for FFE

You will usually lose one turn or a half of time. That is usually worth it since spotting rounds falling isolated in one turn are very back, since the opponent will pull out.

Of course, nothing beats two spotting rounds of 170mm when your sole intention is to convice the opponent to bail out. If CMBO had a command to abandon guns (to rescue the crew) this would have even better effect.

What has all this to do with reality and realistic play? Well - let's wait for CMBB.

Whoa! Evil has a new name...the Guards Breakthrough Gamey Artillery Corps. Very twisted ideas...very twisted indeed, I like it!

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by redwolf:

[snip]

However, when very competive opponents clash in meeting engagements, they usually fall back to the mortars, and then the biggest mortars, because they need the speed. As a defender, you can use TRPs, but they are not very useful and the big howitzer modules are still slow. As the attacker the slow modules may pay off.

[snip]

This is with regards to MEs only, right? I guess I'm just trying to clarify whether you're saying that TRPS, at all, are worthless (which I would disagree with) or just TRPS in MEs, which I've got no experience with.