Demo Charges/Gammon Bombs

[KEEF888]

Approximately how close to a vehicle must a unit be to use its' demo charges/gammon bombs effectively? Also, if the unit fires at an infantry target, will it automatically use the demo charges/gammon bombs? What if the target is in a pillbox/bunker? Thanks.

[rumplemintz]

Let's just say if you can't tell what color the tank commander's eyes are, you better keep your head down. Think of demo charges as having the range of a grenade. Gammon bombs seem to be even shorter range - a desperation measure?

[Ron]

Your squads will have to be within close assault range, less than 20m IIRC, before they use the satchel charges/gammon bombs. The TacAI will handle their firing and target selection. I wouldn't expect much in their use against AFVs but they are quite consistent in taking out pillboxes/bunkers.

Ron

[Capricornelius]

Originally posted by Ron:

they are quite consistent in taking out pillboxes/bunkers.

Ron

Which, of course, ties in with how Allied troops took out a fair few of those bunkers' inhabitants.

[KEEF888]

Thanks for the info, guys.

[Webs]

I can't wait for CM: Dad's Army, with Home Guard AT units armed with pieces of rail, a blanket, and a jerrycan of petrol.

[John Kettler]

There seems to be a severe logic flaw in this discussion. A standard satchel charge can weigh, I believe, upwards of 25 pounds (biggest standard German one was 10kg=22 lbs.). A No. 82 gammon bomb, by contrast, is an all direction fuze assembly, to which an elasticized end drawstring pouch is attached. This assembly weighs mere ounces

and takes little space. Designed for airborne troops who habitually carried blocks of plastic explosive, it was specifically intended as a tailorable yield weapon, a result achieved by regulating the amount of plastic explosive inserted in the bag. Presumably for coding reasons, gammon bombs in CM come with one blast value only.

While I can certainly believe a 20 meter toss for a gammon bomb, I can only conclude that the close assault process is abstracted for the vastly larger and heavier demo/satchel charge, which is going to achieve 20 meter range only when hurled from a high place. It's certainly possible that CM modeled a smaller and weaker demo charge than I describe here, but one has only to watch a few war movies to realize that the typical American demo/satchel charge was a substantial, fairly heavy affair that even Hollywood didn't dare depict as being thrown to hand grenade range, being as big as a fully stuffed large 3-ring binder and sporting a shoulder strap.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

Sources:

WEAPONS OF THE THIRD REICH, Chamberlain and Ellis, p. 362 and THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF INFANTRY WEAPONS OF WORLD WAR II, Hogg, pp. 163, 164.

[Silvio Manuel]

Hmmmm, don't forget that the Squad's location is abstracted such that the guy w/ the big Demo Charge may "in reality" be closer than 20m, even if CM:BO's LOS checker says 20m...IIRC. Don't squads actually occupy a 10 or 20 m square?

[ July 12, 2002, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Monty's Double]

Silvio has the answer I believe. When troops assault vehicles there's a degree of abstraction going on. In "reality", it's more likely that a single member of the squad is scooting forward to place the charge directly against the vehicle while his comrades give covering fire/pray/soil themselves etc. Remember also that the terrain is slightly abstracted too; "open" isn't a billiard table, the ground is assumed to have a small amount of cover. I'd guess that's why BTS chose to code this part of the game the way they did.

[Frunze]

I was once pleasantly surprised to see an Engineer Squad credited with killing a Panther - which was also under attack by 'zooks and Shermans at the time. The squad was about 20 meters from the side of the tank. I presume a demo charge was involved - the movie showed something being thrown at the tank.

Not something to count on - I only expected the squad to make the Panther button up - but a nice lucky break occasionally.

[willbell]

Try getting in close to the tank from the sides and the back. With a little practice you can actually get in and out without casualties. just keep your guys heading for the rear of the tank.

Of course this assumes no local, unfriendly, fire support.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Frunze:

I was once pleasantly surprised to see an Engineer Squad credited with killing a Panther - which was also under attack by 'zooks and Shermans at the time. The squad was about 20 meters from the side of the tank. I presume a demo charge was involved - the movie showed something being thrown at the tank.

With all special weapons (faust,demo,r.grenade,etc) you can know *when* it gets used because it will disappear from the Squads inventory list. Sometimes they will lose these weapons by taking casualties- the man with the Faust gets hit, etc. I hate when that happens...I just took casualties to a VG Pioneer Squad, and thus lost a demo charge & Faust before they ever got used.

As for *seeing* the weapon used: Demo Charges, you can see the beige object arcing thru the air (IIRC it looks the same as the Nahverteidigungswaffe, 'cept its beige instead of black). With the Demo charge, there is always the associated BIG -150mm type blast sound.

With Rifle Grenades, there's usually a *snap* sound as its fired, and sometimes you can see it flying thru the air. Its cool how the Squad can fire R.Grenade/Faust at a target that is 90 degrees+ away from the unit it is actually targeting. Fausts of course have that rocket-firing sounds and often a visual backblast.

[ July 21, 2002, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[KEEF888]

Thanks again, guys. Before I could take the time to conduct any tests, I was playing a PBEM game last week, and one of my Engineer Squads was in a particularly desperate situation. I was able to sneak around to the rear of a King Tiger(!) and lobbed my last demo charge as the beheameth slowly began to pivot it's turret toward my men, with various small arms and MG fire spraying nearby. My squad took casualties, but was still able to deliver its' package (they must've been "fanatic" or U.P.S. employees before the war!) and then proceeded for cover. The demo charge, unfortunately, did not K.O. the beast - but it did manage to blow the treads to shreads, thus immobilizing it and basically committing it to "mission killed", because of it's poor location! When replaying the scene (over and over - LOL!), I could see that the squad got within 10-15 meters, and then tossed their "bag 'o doom". Once again, thanks for all the info! :cool: