John Kettler Posted September 11, 2002 Share Posted September 11, 2002 Andreas, In looking at our posts more carefully and with better brain function than yesterday, I see that I misinterpreted and extrapolated inappropriately from your shot at ladder players, for which I apologize. I do believe the smart aleck, demeaning remark about giving me a cookie was uncalled for, too. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 11, 2002 Share Posted September 11, 2002 You're right John, it was. My only (feeble) defense being it was before my first coffee of the day. My apologies. If you make it to London, I owe you a beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--am-- Posted September 11, 2002 Share Posted September 11, 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 11, 2002 Share Posted September 11, 2002 am - nice pictures. Is there something else you would like to add? As I said before, photographic evidence has to be treated with some caution, since people tend to take pictures of unusual things. Your picture of the German 5cm PAK in what looks like in-direct fire is a case in point. I suspect that was a propaganda shot, since for the life of me I can not see the value of using that gun in an indirect fire role. Especially when you are producing the much better 7.62cm at a rate of 30,000 a year upwards. Another case in point would be a stack of about 70-100 pictures that I have in the drawer next to me. All by a German soldier unknown to me. Not a single one shows a front-line scene. Are we to conclude that this soldier has never seen the frontline then? Discuss... Here's some data I posted elsewhere a long time ago - note the exceedingly low numbers of Soviet kit. <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="4" CELLSPACING="1"><TR><TH>Heeresgruppe</TH><TH>French tanks</TH><TH>Red Army tanks</TH></TR><TR><TD>Nord</TD><TD>none</TD><TD>none</TD></TR><TR><TD>Heeresgruppe A</TD><TD>6 Renault 2B</TD><TD>none</TD></TR><TR><TD>Heeresgruppe Sued</TD><TD>12 PSW 178 = 204(f)</TD><TD>28 T 34, 1 T70</TD></TR><TR><TD>Mitte</TD><TD>15 Hotchkiss 38, 2 Somua 35, 18 PSW 178 = 204(f)</TD><TD>22 T34, 2 T70, 2KW1 (753r), 1KW2 (754r)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Lappland</TD><TD>16 Somua </TD><TD>33 Hotchkiss 38</TD></TR></TABLE> Also, Bren carriers were predominantly used in the east, and some were equipped with 3,7cm PAK35. British tanks Vickers Mk VIC were converted with 10,5cm lFH18. Red Army ACs BAF 203® were used against partisans. Chenillette tracked prime movers were used too, 6,200 captured in total. Bidermann (when still an AT gun commander) relates how by 1942 they ran out of spare parts. Here's where the info comes from: Lexikon der Wehrmacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 11, 2002 Share Posted September 11, 2002 JK I would take the cookie as the beer might be too strong. As for the snide shots at ladder players. Sod off.... Each to their own you two grogs!!! At least we know how to play the game properly!!! P.S. I have not forgotten my promise to that demon worshipper of a set up. I will see to it by the end of the year!! Honest P.P.S JK please do not take the insults too seriously, we are mere Brits (and one who has spent far too long here, I wonder when his work permit runs out?) P.P.P.S My excuse is that I have not yet had a beer and I should be doing Jim's game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: am - nice pictures. Is there something else you would like to add? As I said before, photographic evidence has to be treated with some caution, since people tend to take pictures of unusual things. Your picture of the German 5cm PAK in what looks like in-direct fire is a case in point. I suspect that was a propaganda shot, since for the life of me I can not see the value of using that gun in an indirect fire role. Especially when you are producing the much better 7.62cm at a rate of 30,000 a year upwards. A valid point about use of pics, and more on that in a sec, but I'd like to comment on the Pak 40's too. I can imagine Pak 40's being used as field artillery - but not mixed with that particular 76mm model. I don't recall the model number, but I'm pretty sure those 76's are the 41 calibre ones. Rather I can imagine the Russians capturing numbers of the 1938 model that had been rebored by the Germans to take the Pak 40 round, and then using Pak 40's in conjunction with them. Those 76's were L52 I think, and were not produced much after the start of the war. As for using pics as evidence - I agree. You just can't. Even shots of captured tanks apparently firing are most likely to be on a test range - even if they're shooting at vehicles of thier own original nationality!! And I can guarantee that the T-35 shown was never used operationally by the Germans!! lol Chenillette tracked prime movers were used too, 6,200 captured in total. Bidermann (when still an AT gun commander) relates how by 1942 they ran out of spare parts. How the friggin' heck can you run out of spare parts when you've got 6200 of the damn things - first thing you do is strip half of 'em for parts, 2nd thing is, if they'er useful enough, get the spare parts manufactured again since you captured the country that made them!! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 Mike, good point about the PAK. Regarding the Chenillettes - I think the logistics problems of the Wehrmacht were such that they probably received tropical clothing destined for the Afrika Korps in AG North, while some random mule-mounted mountain AT troop in the Arctic got the Chenillette parts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--am-- Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 PAK-40 In 1945 to year in the Soviet Army was not less than in German army. PAK-40 was on arms in Soviet Army that of middle 50 years T-35 Was found during street fights in Berlin. [ September 12, 2002, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: --am-- ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 Originally posted by --am--: PAK-40 In 1945 to year in the Soviet Army was not less than in German army. PAK-40 was on arms in Soviet Army that of middle 50 years T-35 Was found during street fights in Berlin.Pak40 - thanks for the info. What numbers are we talking? AFAIK there was also a cavalry division on the roster until about 1955, BTW. T35 - well, the picture you have there looks more like one I remember being captioned 'Ukraine 1941', with German soldiers looking the monster over after it has been destroyed/abandoned. ISTR that at some point someone drove a WW I tank into a street battle somewhere in the east. They are also not modelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--am-- Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 During 41-45 years by the Soviet trophy teams is assembled of 20 000 serviceable artillery systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 Originally posted by --am--: During 41-45 years by the Soviet trophy teams is assembled of 20 000 serviceable artillery systems.Thanks, very helpful - that is a very impressive number. I had no idea that the numbers were that high. Do you have figures for tanks too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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