Lessons Learned

[jwxspoon]

I've recently been playing much higher quality opponents through TCP on some of the ladders. I have had my rear end handed to me a few times - the question is have I learned anything? Thought I'd post some of the lessons and tactics successfully used against me here, and I hope some of you will do the same.

1. Artillery - I used to buy 81mm mortars on the premise that it would soften up the enemy, keep their heads down, and I had 150- 200 rounds to play with. But that was before I learned the power of 155mm VT. I lost an entire company in 2 turns of artillery when my infantry was in a wooded position untouchable by direct fire and securing a flag position. Now I will always buy at least some 155mm (or like large-sized) artillery as I have learned that the shock and destruction factor here outweighs the lack of ammunition.

2. Patience - In ME's, I am often moving forward too fast. Several times a quality player has let me charge forward and secure the voctory flags, only to pound me and expertly eject my battered forces a few turns later. Now I am much more patient. I spend a lot more time at ground level plotting individual squad movement instead of moving the platoon as a whole. I have learned the value of the "sneak" command and the power of a (+2 Stealth) command unit when sneaking up on the enemy. Most often now in my games the really heavy fighting doesn't take place until the last 1/3rd of the game, when before the first half of the game was the fighting and I tried to "make do" in the second half.

3. Air Power Rocks - I never knew this. I had bought airplanes once in a PBEM attack when I was the British. It was a disaster, because they didn't show up until I had lost 1/3 of my force taking the dominant terrain feature. Then, as my men huddled around a burned out Tiger and Stug, we were bombed and strafed for four or five turns by moy own aircraft. I lost count of how many times they knocked out those dead German vehicles. Then I played a 1250 pt ME QB. Of course you would never buy aircraft in those, right? Well my opponent did. By turn 3 I had no vehicles left and was well on my way to a Major Loss.

4. Flamethrowers: Those little wasp flamethrower carriers rock! Several times as axis I have had a hidden Wasp zip out, roll at high speed a hundred meters or so and kill a major tank of mine before the startled crew could react. Several times my tank ended up killing the wasp and getting immolated in flame in return. Also, I have had some opponents use the little flamethrower carriers to set large areas on fire and create very effective smoke screens for his units to use, also denying my own troops the cover afforded of light buildings or woods near an objective.

Hope some of this helps. I'm interested in hearing from others on lessons learned.

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: jwxspoon ]

[elalamein]

Yes, what a good post.

Being very new to CMBO I am currently on a learning curve against the AI, however several points have given me new things to try out.

Being a Brit I always tend to play with the Brit forces and the use of the Wasps will give me new things to try.

[Kingfish]

I agree with everything except #3. While a well placed air strike can make a huge difference, the chances of that happening are very slim. Either they don't show when you need them, completely miss the targets, or bomb your own guys.

For the price of a Jabo (200/300 points) you can get a lot of artillery, which you can control directly, has more decisive results, and last a helluva lot longer.

[Gremlin]

Good points. Don't totally neglect 81mm arty, though, particularly for the Americans, who get the most shells per FO. These are great for extensive smoke screens.

[Subvet]

I'll reply to the original tips by jwxspoon and then add some of my own.

1. Arty: I agree with you. The only reason I buy the small stuff now is for smoke. I try to get at least 105mm+; 150mm+ is even better.

2. Patience: I definitely agree with this. For me this is one of the hard ones to follow even though I know that I need to. It is especially true with armor. Often the player who shows his armor first loses it.

3. Air power: I have to disagree with you here. It can make all the difference, but it is dicey. I'd rather spend all those points on something I can control. Air power is just too random for me. The only time I might use it is if I was fairly sure that my opponent was going to use a lot of open topped armor. Strafing aircraft just tear these vehicles up.

4. Flamethrowers: The self-propelled types are very effective. I'm not a fan of the infantry ones though. They are way too slow and way too vulnerable. I might use them when defending though. The self-propelled ones have become some of my favorite vehicles. If I'm attacking a town/village I'll usually buy these. The wasp is my favorite. The churchill FT tank is pretty cool as well, but it's expensive.

5. Reserves: Always try to hold back some kind of infantry reserve. When you can bring fresh troops in on the later turns they can be very effective. It is also easier to move them to the spot where you need the help if they aren't engaged on the front lines. Another reason this is a good idea is...

6. Ammo: If it gets to the point where one side is out of ammo and the other isn't which one do you want to be? Try not to waste ammo on fire that probably isn't going to be effective anyway. I love it when an opponent uses his infantry to plink at my infantry in good cover from long range. Once he runs out of ammo I can close to a more deadly range and eliminate him. How many times have you played a game where you burned up all your arty early on some targets that weren't really that great, and then late in the game your opponent presents that perfect target to you? Don't end the game with unused arty, but don't use it all in the first 5 turns of a 30 turn game either.

[Booz]

Excellent topic to post! I too have started to play against more veteran players and have learned PATIENCE to be one of the most common threads among experienced players. They let you take the flags and then clobber you with artillery.

Another big difference is armor tactics. I tend to leave my units in place for too long. The veterans move their armor often, they are stationary no more than two turns at a time. Also, they use hull down or cover expertly. Moving out to take a shot or two and then disappearing behind a building or hill.

[Warmaker]

I agree with your points to certain degrees but offer ideas in contrast. Not that your points are bad, just putting out a different way to skin the cat:

1. For an Allied player, especially US, you have a great artillery selection that I, an ardent Axis player, can only dream of. Lots of ammo for your FOs and you have the VT fuses. For the Germans, the most reliable heavy hitter is the 150mm. Quite good but as with all German artillery, you don't get as much ammo compared to the Yank/Tommy artillery. On the negative side for the Germans you rarely get access to enough points to buy these things unless playing a large QB. So 81mm mortars are still good enough and 105mm artillery still fits the bill nicely.

2. Patience is a virtue that I like but it doesn't hurt to be agressive and daring every now and then. Hurry your forces to VL areas (not necessarily right on top of them, anywhere near them or assuming positions to cover their approaches from the enemy's suspected avenues of approach). One key thing is to assume positions that you think are not directly exposed to the other player's initial setup areas. Using buildings and woods to act as screens is a great way to break it up. If he wants to waste his artillery to blast a part of the city, uncertain as to where you have setup, then that's good. He may get a handful of your guys by lucky hits but it's better than letting him use that FO with a direct LOS on several of your infantry formations.

Another reason on why I favor an agressive plan on a ME is that I usually play as a desperate defense. If I hurry and assume positions on or near the VLs or whatever positions I like I feel in effect I'm playing a defensive scenerio. I setup my troops like one and treat it like one. Rushing my troops to my planned locations, especially if they're all plain-jane foot powered guys, will tire them so getting that extra few turns to assume proper facing, ambush orders, sneaking, and finally resting with a full set of lungs ready to deal with any turtle advances.

Here's some more suggestions for your MEs: Be sure to send some infantry ahead (broken up squads maybe?) to scout ahead, find the enemy and at the very worst trigger ambushes That's the only good thing green troops are good for IMO. Save my Regulars and Veterans for the real man's work.

Even with my weird approach on a ME, I also like to send out half-squads to act as Observation Posts or Listening Posts to enemy advances ahead of my real "defenses." Is the enemy sending reconaissance ahead like he should? Do the poor fools about to blunder into my kill zones deserve the "full treatment" or should I restrain my fire? For a German player, even half squads with a Panzerfaust are a great way to deal with enemy AFVs running around inside towns/villages or other such terrain.

3. I don't like CAS. To random and they work too closely due to the usual ranges in CMBO. No wonder your pilots may get confused with the close ranges. And losing my own armor to my own air force is quite annoying so I prefer to spend points that would have been used on airpower on more reliable, controllable artillery.

4. Flamethrower units are quite good if you know how to use them. Let me warn you about any light skinned FT units like the British Wasp and German 251/16: They're thin skinned so anything larger than a MG can kill them. HMGs with enough shots can kill them, esp. .50 cals. Light, cheap units like the German 20mm/37mm AA guns are fast, efficient, and deadly effective against light AFVs. The same can be said of Allied AA guns. Another way of dealing with those annoying AFVs in dense terrain? Bazookas, PIATs, and Panzerschrecks. Dense terrain is the infantry's realm, baby.

Even if you hold back your FT units, the moment you bring them out to play and especially once they've been ID'd, they will attract lots of unhealthy fire.

Again, there's no real on way to play in CMBO as you all know. Experimenting and getting a few a$$ whippings along the way forces points upon you real good. For me, being aggressive and daring is the way to go, especially with small numbers of good troops/equipment. Just don't get discouraged and you'll be a Monty/Patton/Rommel sooner or later.

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[jwxspoon]

I appreciate the responses. I still do not buy the FT's or the CAS, but have had them used on me to devestating effect. And you're right about being aggressive - sometimes the "hail mary end run" turns the tide.

I try to play all of the nationalities in the game. I particularly like to play axis and use a mixture of 1/2 Fallschirmjaeger and 1/2 Gebirgsjaeger (sp?) for my infantry, supplemented by a few additional shrecks and HMG's. I have had one platoon of G-jaegers stand off an entire US company in the woods before, after which my opponent got mad and said I was cheating... not cheating, just learning how to play and utilize the benefits of each troop type. Anyone that has had their regular infantry go hand to hand with German Stormtroopers end up with a healthy respect for their huge squads, or with Gjaegers because of their incredible close range firepower; any one playing against British paras learns very quickly how cheap they are and, therefore, how many extra squads your opponent can buy to use when you least expect it.

I love this game.

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: jwxspoon ]

[StugIII]

This to some is probably very obvious but don't underestimate the power of the Priest or StuH42 for clearing city blocks. Unlike the flamethrowers/vehicles these can sit way back, and with a LOS, can pound a building into rubble in no time. I have found this (the hard way :mad: ) a way more effective tactic at removing undesired infantry from buildings. With flame you give your opponent a chance to retreat from the building. With these 105mm beauties you can level that same building killing most of the troops inside.

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: StugIII ]

[jwxspoon]

I agree about the big SP's. City fighting is one area in which I'd like to improve. One thing I have learned is that some of the AA vehicles the axis has are very versatile in the city, particularly the 37mm variant. I hope that in CM2 the us quad .50 cal flak vehicle will be included. What an awesome anti-infantry and light armor killer that will be!

[Warmaker]

Did the M16 HT (quad .50s) make their way to Russia via Lend-Lease? I'm not sure.

I hope I didn't come off my post sounding like I disregard the firepower of 105mm equipped SPA. On the contrary, I respect them against my infantry. What I'm saying with my trick is to have a bunch of buildings or other large terrain features between my men and the big guns to block their LOS and thereby negating one of their huge advantages of standing off and blasting my men. If he wants to root my men out with them he better send infantry to get shot up to make sure I don't have any panzerjager teams hiding around. If he still wants to engage me it will be at the shorter ranges I prefer... using cheap AT defenses like Panzerschrecks and Puppchens. Later months in the war I get the cool, long reaching Panzerfaust-100s for additional AT power.

If my enemy wants to waste several turns and tons of ammo clearing whole blocks of buildings that I don't even occupy since he's guessing where I'm at, then that's all good: Better those rounds are wasted on unoccupied buildings than having 105mm guns with a clear LOS on my men and finding their mark. If his guesses get too close or start finding their mark, there's a simple solution: Back my men away a short distance, let him get his rocks off by blowing the building, then shortly move my men into the ruins/rubble. Not as great hard cover, but I still get alot of concealment value for me men. Reading the FJ's stand at Monte Cassino gave me the inspiration for CMBO.

City fighting then and now is nasty business. All I can say is practice. Maybe read some AARs or books for lessons and inspiration.

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[tecumseh]

Another obvious thing i only recently started doing: When hiding your reserve infantry platoons at the back, don't put the platoon leader with them. It's a waste. Instead put him in CandC of guns, mortars and MGs...later in the game when your reserve is ready to go into the battle, spend the extra turn withdrawing the leader back to his men. Those CandC bonuses are GOLD.

An HQ with heaps of bonuses is perfect as the reserve HQ because he might have his long-reaching effects on an AT gun, a flak gun, and a couple of mortars for the first 3/4, and then on the infantry platoon that rushes the flag in the last 1/4. To increase the odds of getting this well-endowed guy i buy at least 1 vet platoon.

Post more gamey strategies!

[Warmaker]

It's pretty imperative to keep as much of your forces within C&C. The reserves are no exception with a defensive scenario being more important since you're likely to be outnumbered. The command delays for units in/out of C&C is just too big to ignore. Veteran or better troops lessen this problem to a degree with "better delays" but green and conscript troops have HORRIBLE delays for units out of C&C... I remember having some conscript Volkssturm militia having a whole 45 second delay just to get started moving ahead about 50m! The point is to keep units in C&C as much as possible, especially low quality troops. The other big reason is to enable the bonuses for your men.

Now for the bonuses. Everyone loves the attack bonuses, hands down. Stealth is a nice one too. Won't go further into that one. But if I somehow had a wishlist of the minimum bonuses I'd like my HQ units to have in various situations it'd be this:

DEFENSE

*Command Radius- Enables me to have more freedom in placing my units in C&C. Support teams can be kept a little further back at a safer distance.

*Morale- I can't stress how much this has saved my butt in a defensive game. When artillery starts raining down and enemy fire becomes horrible, lesser units will pack up and head for home. Support teams will not abandon their positions as easily, esp. those fragile ATG teams and other support guns. Your troops won't run when sneezed upon. If you have one platoon with a HQ having a morale bonus, put these guys as the last line of defense or holding a vital VL. Something like that. They will stubbornly hold their positions and will require the most heinous firepower or assault to root out.

ATTACK

#Attack- Inflict as much damage as possible. Cause as much pain as possible. Enough said!

#Command Radius- Just like on defense, a large command radius enables me to do fancy maneuvering with my units (i.e.flanking) and also allows me to keep my supporting teams (HMGs, etc.) back a little longer. Higher ranking HQ units (company, btln level) already have larger than usual radius but a bonus here is even more useful. They can catch more broken units running away from the advance. Send the bastards back to the frontlines! No cowards!

[tecumseh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker:

It's pretty imperative to keep as much of your forces within C&C. The command delays for units in/out of C&C is just too big to ignore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah like i said, when you are ready to give the reserve infantry some orders, get the HQ back to them. But for the first half of the game keep the reserve platoons hidden at the back and use their HQs foward a bit, commanding guns etc...

I see no need to keep a reserve platoon in CandC if they are away from the action, as long as the HQ is <1 turn away. No revelation,..but it has helped my game a bit.

[Gremlin]

A better thing to do is to use the Company and/or Battalion HQ units with individual guns, leaving the platoon HQ's with their respective units.

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gremlin:

A better thing to do is to use the Company and/or Battalion HQ units with individual guns, leaving the platoon HQ's with their respective units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep.

[Kingfish]

A blast from the past:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003757

[tenfive2]

OK, here's mine. Don't put your infantry in a position that's going to just get pounded by heavy weapons. You know the one. You're sitting in the edge of a woods because of good LOS and you have to take the arty and afv shots.

Works the same for buildings. The squads just get decimated while being unable to stop the incoming fire. Wait for the ememy to waste his fire, then move into positions.

[jwxspoon]

Last night I played a 1000 pt ME as axis. I had some extra points at the end of the selection process and purchased a Hummell and a puppchen AT weapon. I placed the Hummell about 500 meters behind my advacing troops and placed the puppchen hidden in a small patch of woods near my front lines.

In the first 5 turns the Hummell and its 150mm cannon were unbelievable. I killed or routed a half dozen enemy squads and flattened a couple of prime location buildings with 1 shot. Desperate, my opponent ran a Daimler AC and a Churchill Croc down the map edge to kill the Hummell. The Churchill finally did so, but the puppchen got them both, and a wasp a few minutes later as a bonus.

I was stunned at the effect of my 80 point Hummell! Even the slow 2-3 rounds per minute swung the battle in my favor. My opponent couldn't recover and surrendered by turn 20.

[tenfive2]

Here's another. Don't show your HT's early.(maybe never) It's tempting to use them for the MG's and such, but they burn really well...

[Gremlin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and placed the puppchen hidden in a small patch of woods near my front lines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A perfect reminder that AT guns aren't just for defenders in attack/assault battles

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gremlin:

A perfect reminder that AT guns aren't just for defenders in attack/assault battles <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. Unless some terrain feature blocks the LOS of your guns no matter where you setup. And then if you've got alot of balls to actually spend points on HTs/Trucks to haul guns around on the attack/ME/assault. Then there's the setup time SPG/SPA all the way IMO!

[Gremlin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>SPG/SPA all the way IMO!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's my preferred route too: I tend to distrust anything that's not fast and armored But, you have to admit, an ATG in an ME or attack can surprise the other player very easily since it's not done that frequently.

[jwxspoon]

Yes - the way I look at a cheap Puppchen or light AT gun is insurance - insurance against an overrun or flank attack by enemy armor (I have succumbed to both ) and also on the positive end there might be a pleasant surprise and the map board may be open enough that your light AT gun can rule the battlefield. Yesterday an opponent had a 6lber AT gunway over in the corner of the board. I could not kill it. It killed a Hummell, panicked an HMG and got a gun hit on my Jpz IV, eventually causing the crew to bail.

At the end of the game I had a minor obj and we were locked in hand to hand on the major; I got overwhelmed on the last turn and ended up losing the game by just a few points. I cannot help but think that if my we could have gotten that lowly 6lber earlier it would have ended differently.

[Sergeant Saunders]

About the prepared positions on the edge of woods, getting hit by arty. I have found if the cover is there, setup where you want the foxholes. on the 1st turn, pull back out of the holes and into deeper cover. Let them plaster the obvious hiding places and then move back in when it lifts. You have a nice hole and maybe others to defend from.