Sharpshooters- How sharp is too sharp?

[Tero]

Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

One problem that people make in trying to judge the effectiveness of sharpshooters in CM is that they view them as snipers. They are not trained snipers in CM, but rather skilled shooters that are picked from the ranks and sent out to plink at the enemy. In other words, this isn't their job by training.

If they are supposed to be skilled shooters they still would be above average shots (as compared to the others in the force), right ?

If you have a veteran sharp shooter is he a veteran sharp shooter or a veteran sharp shooter ?

If you assume a sharp shooter with no sniper training (which BTW means what exactly ?) has for example some experience as in hunting would it not be reasonable to think he could rack up kills far more consistently than a man with an urban background.

I understand the point Fishu is making because the greatest sniper ever, Simo Häyhä who racked more than 500 kills (yes, a bloody überFinn ), was in CM terms a regular sharp shooter with a hunting background and not a sniper at all in the strickt sense of the term as fielded here.

So, was Simo Häyhä (like all Finnish "snipers" of WWII) a sharpshooter or a sniper ? In the strickt terms of the CMBX world he was a sharpshooter because he had no formal sniper training and he was a regular reservist. He was selected to act as a sharp shooter by his unit commander because he was known to be a good shot.

[ October 15, 2002, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by tero:

If you assume a sharp shooter with no sniper training (which BTW means what exactly ?)

Someone who qualified above average on the rifle range during basic training and was given a scoped rifle and told to pick his own targets.

So, was Simo Häyhä (like all Finnish "snipers" of WWII) a sharpshooter or a sniper ? In the strickt terms of the CMBX world he was a sharpshooter because he had no formal sniper training and he was a regular reservist. He was selected to act as a sharp shooter by his unit commander because he was known to be a good shot.

You miss the point. Simo Häyhä may well have been a "natural sniper". But whatever he was, snipers per se are not modeled in CM. Sharpshooters are. This ground has been covered a hundred times now.

People who want snipers, in the strictest sense, need to find another game.

Michael

[ October 15, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Nidan1]

When you try to make the distinction between a sniper and a sharpshooter in the context of the CM battlefield you can be accused of splitting crosshairs so to speak.

CM depicts tactical level battles lasting up to an hour, which indicates to me that the units listed as sharpshooters are just skilled marksmen to be used as outposts or scouts to locate advanced enemy intentions as early as possible. To use them as snipers would mean locating them well to the rear of a CM map, out to ranges of 500m or more. A true sniper, or a man fitting that title, would lay in wait for days for that one shot. On a tactical battlefield the ranges are too close, and eventually a lone shooter would bring down a rain of fire upon himself. A sniper would take his shot and move on for the next encounter. That has not been my experience in CM, as the sharpshooter units usually get supressed or killed pretty quickly.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Someone who qualified above average on the rifle range during basic training and was given a scoped rifle and told to pick his own targets.

The difference in the training systems is beginning to show. Again.

Reservists armies (like the Finnish army) had a large pool of non-regular, basic trained, men with a core of regulars who acted as trainers and in war time leaders. Some (many ?) of the non-regulars were qualified, above average shots. Some trained in their spare time and got even better. Refresher training was arranged from time to time. The regulars could concentrate on other, "more demanding" things like command and control issues. The Finnish sharp shooters trained on their own time at their own expence as it was their hobby/profession. How is that modelled in the game ?

Professional armier had to rely on the regulars to act as specialists and the men conscripted to service at the time of war had to make do with a hasty basic training and OJT.

You miss the point. Simo Häyhä may well have been a "natural sniper". But whatever he was, snipers per se are not modeled in CM.

Yes. But in case you do not know Häyhä did not use a scoped rifle. He was still a sharp shooter in strict CM terms when it comes to his background. Most of the Finnish "snipers" were sharp shooters in CM terms.

Sharpshooters are. This ground has been covered a hundred times now.

The thing is we are no longer on exclusively Anglo-American turf now.

The "universal soldier" axiom does not transcend some of the very basic differences in the training, tactics and doctrine of the different armies.

People who want snipers, in the strictest sense, need to find another game.

Perhaps. But since there are sharp shooters in CMBB they should act like ones.

Mind you, I for one would not lose any sleep if they were stricken from the game as separate units altogether.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by tero:

...since there are sharp shooters in CMBB they should act like ones.

They do.

Michael

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

One problem that people make in trying to judge the effectiveness of sharpshooters in CM is that they view them as snipers. They are not trained snipers in CM, but rather skilled shooters that are picked from the ranks and sent out to plink at the enemy. In other words, this isn't their job by training.

I never heard of the difference of sharpshooters or snipers in the Wehrmacht.

As i know there was only the "Scharfschütze".

His aim was to get behind enemy lines, find a good hiding place and to wait there several days till usually a HQ commander could be knocked out.

The persons taken for this job were selected by very good annoy-strenght, 'cause most of them knew, that they will have only one shot from the actual hiding-place.

One shot for days of waiting.

This would mean they were a kind of snipers you mention and CM obviously doen't model snipers or german Scharfschützen.

Maybe someone has infos, if sharpshooters modeled in CM ever existed in german Heer?

What was their naming?

If they existed, where have they been taken from and did they use a Scharfschützengewehr?

I can't believe that german commanders choosed well suited soldiers for sharpshooting missions. Where did they take the necessary Scharfschützengewehr (sniper-gun)?

1500 km in Russia, where they were glad when they had some meat.

I'm quite happy with the gameplay of the sharpshooters, but for better realism i believe they would deserve a complete rework with the engine-rewrite.

It should be able to place the german Scharfschütze everywhere in the setup-phase, but the player doesn't see, what they "see". He just sees on the info screen, what they already hit.

[ October 15, 2002, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[sheepshooter]

Actually, the Scharfschützen in the Wehrmacht were not to penetrate enemy lines, but to stay a little bit behind the frontline. In contrast to the Russian snipers, who were ordered to stay near the front and take out enemies far behind, the German´s believed more in the added value of selecting targets while being not directly exposed to enemy fire. There is - as usual - no right or wrong in the approaches: While the German had more time and less stress to endure while aquiring the target (thus probably producing better shooting results), the Russian sharpshooter had a more direct impact on both, Russian and German morale. Nice book on that issue (fiction, but very good researched): "A Grandfather´s Tale: Story of a German sniper" or, of course, "War of Rats".

In this way, sharpshooters in CM are more like the Russian approach, while the Scharfschützen are more difficult (perhaps impossible) to model in CM.

Originally posted by Schoerner:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

One problem that people make in trying to judge the effectiveness of sharpshooters in CM is that they view them as snipers. They are not trained snipers in CM, but rather skilled shooters that are picked from the ranks and sent out to plink at the enemy. In other words, this isn't their job by training.

I never heard of the difference of sharpshooters or snipers in the Wehrmacht.

As i know there was only the "Scharfschütze".

His aim was to get behind enemy lines, find a good hiding place and to wait there several days till usually a HQ commander could be knocked out.

The persons taken for this job were selected by very good annoy-strenght, 'cause most of them knew, that they will have only one shot from the actual hiding-place.

One shot for days of waiting.

This would mean they were a kind of snipers you mention and CM obviously doen't model snipers or german Scharfschützen.

Maybe someone has infos, if sharpshooters modeled in CM ever existed in german Heer?

What was their naming?

If they existed, where have they been taken from and did they use a Scharfschützengewehr?

I can't believe that german commanders choosed well suited soldiers for sharpshooting missions. Where did they take the necessary Scharfschützengewehr (sniper-gun)?

1500 km in Russia, where they were glad when they had some meat.

I'm quite happy with the gameplay of the sharpshooters, but for better realism i believe they would deserve a complete rework with the engine-rewrite.

It should be able to place the german Scharfschütze everywhere in the setup-phase, but the player doesn't see, what they "see". He just sees on the info screen, what they already hit.</font>

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by sheepshooter:

Actually, the Scharfschützen in the Wehrmacht were not to penetrate enemy lines, but to stay a little bit behind the frontline.

It's not a question of penetrating or letting the front roll over and wait.

What i'm wondering is, if there EXISTED sharpshooters in the german Heer, like modeled in CM?

My info is, that they didn't.

[Madmatt]

While I seriously doubt his claims above, discussions with regard to "hacking" are not permitted here and as such this is being locked up.

Madmatt