Zitadelle Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Alright, this message will probably end up on the General Forum, but before it gets there, I thought I would ask my fellow CMBO grogs this question first. Has anyone read Antony Beevor's The Fall of Berlin 1945 yet? If so, would you recommend the read- particularly from a detailed/grog perspective. I read the _Washington Post_ book review (5/19/2002) of the book, and the reviewer could not get beyond Beevor's dicussion of the various crimes commited by the Russians during the advance. Is this a valid assessment of the book- it details sex crimes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGMB Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Ohh! Ohh! can i call this one: "And off to the General Forum we go!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 The feedback I had from one grog says: 'Get Cornelius Ryan's 'The last battle'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 It does discuss the phenomenon of casual rape by invading armies, and how this phenomenon became institutionalised within the Russian military. I thoroughly enjoyed the book - it gave a fine idea of how out of touch the loons at the top were with the real situation, and how paranoid Stalin was that Germany would capitulate to the Allies and he would lose Berlin. I paid £15 for mine (special offer), and it was an excellent read. Hi mum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan5681 Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 He hit on Stalin being paranoid in his prevous book Stalingrad. I have Corneleas Ryans book also so is it worth getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 I haven't read Ryan's book. I have read three of Beevor's books, including "Stalingrad" and "The Spanish Civil War". Both were excellent and very readable. Towards the end of the book, Beevor touches on the phenomenon of mass rape in a sociological context, and the primeval aspects of rape and war. The book also includes some very touching personal accounts, and some interesting psychological analysis of the leaders on both sides. The Allies underestimated Stalin's paranoia and his desire to control Poland and what became the "Eastern Bloc". One of the things that appalled me was German boys as young as twelve being given a bicycle and a pair of Panzerfausts and told to "do their duty for their Fuhrer." All in all, highly readable for a nongrog like me, and well worth the money. Recommended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan5681 Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Allright ill get it then its settled. Thanks for your opinion I trust this board cos I know you aint selling the stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Juzzy Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 I wouldn't. IMHO you'd be better off with Cornelius Ryan's 'Berlin'. I found that Beevor can't decide whether his book is military or social history. His narrative is confused and confusing and he's not turned up many new sources, manybe only 5, and these don't really change our conceptions of what took place. Some of the personal accounts are quite interesting, but thats it. As an eminent grog put it, 'I havn't seen it offered for full price anywhere'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan5681 Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 I picked up a cheap Large book called Stalingrad the infernal cauldron just for the photos as there is really not much for the text but some of these photos rock. is it ok to scan them in to show people some (if you would want that is). oh the books by stephen walsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Beevor has a tendency to place too much focus on the Soviet political situation than on the military aspects. He also tends to 'suggest' opinions that cannot be substantiated. "Rapes in May of 1945 in Berlin" versus "Racially-based atrocities(rape, murder, slavery, imprisonment, inhuman experimentation) throughout Russia from 1941-1944." These things happened which is why the Soviet-German War was such a different conflict in WWII. It was a war of culture and ideology as well as a political contest. Frankly, I would prefer Ryan's book on Berlin. The late John Erickson assisted Ryan greatly with this project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 I found that his analysis of the political and social aspects enhanced the book, rather than detracted from it, by putting the war into some sort of context. As I said above, I'm not a grog, so I don't care about armour penetration figures, or which side had more reliable pistols. I found it an interesting read, and a valuable insight on something I've never known much about. As for sneering about it because it hasn't been offered at full price... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan5681 Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Thats funny I make it a habit not to buy any fll price books pegasus bridge £6.99 Whsmiths Band of Brothers £3.99 in ASDA in Nottingham Plus all the cheap bookshops out there its not hard to find what you want at three quarters the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Originally posted by Soddball: As for sneering about it because it hasn't been offered at full price... Well, if a book is discounted from the day it appears for sale, pretty much anywhere, I think it says something about it. How many discounted Glantz books are there? From what Justin told me, it sounds to me as if his publisher told Beevor to knock it out quickly, while 'history is the new gardening', still. As for groggishness, if you look for armour penetrations or operational analysis, Ryan does not do that either, but contrary to Beevor, he did the 1st hand research (he e.g. went to interview Koniev and others, together with Erickson), while Beevor just rehashes all this. FWIW - I certainly enjoyed Beevor's Spanish cicl war treatise, but well written it was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zitadelle Posted May 23, 2002 Author Share Posted May 23, 2002 Thanks fellow grogs for the updates on A. Beevor's book. And, I also know where and how much the book will cost if I purchase it in Britain (next time I happen to visit).... Reviewing the direction that the conversation is going, I probably will dust off my old copy of C. Ryan's The Last Battle (first edition) and read that rather than Beevor's book. It has been too long since I read Ryan's book, and it probably will serve me better. As for the grogs analysis of the battle- I guess I phrased the question incorrectly. I would not think that Beevor's book (nor Ryan's) would get into TO&Es and equipment. That would be beyond the scope for both books. Rather, I was trying to determine whether Beevor's book gave an accurate representation of the Soviet advances and German defense through Poland, across the Oder, and into Berlin itself. As a sidenote: if someone is looking for a excellent overview of the conflict (January-May, 1945), I would recommend the BBS Program Battlefield and the episode entitled: Battle for Berlin. Very well done with excellent research and video footage from the correct era. [ May 23, 2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Zitadelle ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keke Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 As a sidenote: if someone is looking for a excellent overview of the conflict (January-May, 1945), I would recommend the BBS Program Battlefield and the episode entitled: Battle for Berlin. Very well done with excellent research and video footage from the correct era.I echo that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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