CMBO: Does smoke last long enough?

[Runyan99]

I do not think so. In general, my sources seem to indicate that a WW2 smoke screen would last about 10-15 minutes. In combat mission, you are lucky to get more than 5 minutes, if you commit one entire mortar battery (ususally 81mm) to a smoke barrage.

Consider an example. I have been reading "A Colonel in the Armored Divisions" by Col. William Triplet (US Army), Missouri Press.

Around 16 December 1944 he commanded a regiment of the 2nd Armored Division. One particular combat mission at this time was the capture of the town of Forzee in Belgium. The plan was for a heavy weapons company (mortar assets) to lay down a smoke screen in front of the town at 0955 hours, and then his forces would move in fast. Jump off time was 1000 hrs.

The attack or rather the movement went off very well. At 0955 the white phosphorous clouds began to slope and spread along the Haversin-Mont Gautier road just short of Forzee. At 1000 the tanks and tracks surged forward, galloped down the slope, and plunged into the cloud. We rocked across the banks and ditches of the main road with the riflemen clinging to handholds on the rear decks, then down the slope of a meadow and into the village, first through thick, white smoke, then a heavy fog.....The town was completely fogged at first, gradually fading out to a white haze.

Just guessing, but this movement must have taken at least 5 minutes, which puts them into the village around 1005...10 minutes after the smoke was begun to be fired, and there was STILL a "heavy fog" on the town.

I think this is a pretty good example. It leads me to believe that smoke was more persistent and effective historically than is currently modeled in CMBO. It cannot spread, or hang, or dissapate gradually, and generally disappears very quickly in the game.

I know that CMBB is adding wind to the mix, I just hope that the smoke is a little more robust in that game.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

I do not think so. [snips]

Consider an example. I have been reading "A Colonel in the Armored Divisions" by Col. William Triplet (US Army), Missouri Press.

[Example snipped]

CM:BO does not distinguish between different types of smoke, either. The example quoted refers to WP, which tends to "pillar" and requires frequent stoking. Base-ejection smoke (BES) uses longer-burning candles (90 secs for each of the 3 candles in 25-pdr BES) which generate a "cold" chemical snoke which tends to hug the ground more, and will only require a low rate of fire in stoking. I have no information on the German oleum/pumice bursting smoke shells, but I imagine they would be less effective than BES and require more stoking.

Another of the aspects this brings out is that CM:BO's artillery system makes no provision for firing at different rates; everything is a simple concentration at the rapid rate. There's lots that could be done to change that, but don;t get me started on artillery rules...

All the best,

John.

[ May 18, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: John D Salt ]

[Schrullenhaft]

One of the things you have to take into consideration with smoke in CMBO (and probably in CMBB) is that it blocks LOS completely. This probably wouldn't be true of a real world smoke screen (for the same amount of ammunition expended)that's been hanging around for 5-15 minutes.

There's some definite limitations on smoke modelling in CM. Some of this is necessary since modelling its complete effects is quite complex and it would be processor intensive. Dust is also a similar situation. Drift, density and dissipation can be quite complex to model correctly in a 3D environment.

Any massive changes to the way smoke works (though there should be some changes in CMBB) will have to wait for the rewrite of the engine, where faster CPUs that can handle the additional calculation load will be assumed to be the norm.

[ May 18, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[WWB]

Also, if you use 105mm to throw smoke it persists quite a bit longer, at least from my oberservations.

WWB

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

[QB]One of the things you have to take into consideration with smoke in CMBO (and probably in CMBB) is that it blocks LOS completely. This probably wouldn't be true of a real world smoke screen (for the same amount of ammunition expended)that's been hanging around for 5-15 minutes.

QB]

And you can't aera fire into snmoke either...what I sure would do with my MG's if that bridge suddenly disappears in a huge cloud of smoke...

[Hans]

Having observed modern smoke deployment on German and French terrain as modelled in CM. One of the key matters is the wind, and especially the lapse and lull in wind that occurs at sunset and sunrise. As a previous posted said, "Don't get me started on the artillery rules"!

Hopefully with CM II a more accurate smoke (and dust) effects will come into use and perhaps for us artillery freaks an optional rule for "weather".

Yep, MG's and other weapons in a defense were (should have been if the NCO's are good) sited on key features for use at night and if rain or smoke covered them. Blind MG and indirect tends to travel thru smoke very effectively! Use of smoke also magnifies friendly on friendly fire too.

Hans

Hans

[Louie the Toad]

Two Thoughts.

I find it odd that the friendly soldiers riding on top of the vehicles as described would not suffer ill effects from the WP.

Also upon reading the passage again, I believe it is referrering to both the smoke from the WP AND

WEATHER RELATED FOG which was covering the town.

So I am not convinced that this was an example of purely smoke and therefore not the best scenario to use to determine its effectiveness.

Foggy bottom Toad