Newbie Demo Question(s) - **spoilers**

[Tripwire6]

** Warning: Demo Spoilers **

First, I'm new to the Combat Mission games. I downloaded both demos, but I decided to play CM:BtB since my gaming time is somewhat limited. I've been playing the 45 turn mission against AI from both sides using EFOW. I don't remember the mission name, but it's German Panzers vs. Russian anti-tank forces. I'm looking for a little bit of after action critique and pointers.

The mission seemed easy playing the Germans. Basically I just advanced the tanks and made sure that there was plenty of fire hitting anything that started shooting at me. It was a very lop-sided victory (97% I think).

Playing the Russians was much more problematic. In my first attempt, I managed to take out 5 of the 15 Panzers and held on for a draw. It was hollow though in that the Germans ran out of time. My forces were devasted.

I attempted the mission again. This time I moved a few of the forces. I wanted one big kill zone with most of my forces in front of the ancient river bed. I moved some of the machine guns up to hopefully get the Panzers to button up as the firing started. I left the four AT guns behind the river bed as a last line of defense.

This worked to some extent. After waiting until I "saw the whites of their eyes" (about 300-400 meters from the AT guns), I triggered the ambush using vehicle cover arcs. I made sure that my guns were using a cross fire to get shots at the flanks of the Panzers. I also had my two tanks join the exchange. The end result after two rounds of intense weapons fire was that all of my front line AT guns and tanks were knocked out, however, 7 Panzers were inoperable. I took this to be more than fair exchange.

The Panzers began mop up, but they stayed away from the woods to the left (from the Russian's perspective) where the large portion of my anti-tank infantry squads were placed. As the turns wound down, two Panzers headed to those woods while the rest continued through the ancient river bed. At this time, I attacked with my remaining four AT guns, but they failed to get a kill before being knocked out. My AT squads managed to take out one of the two Panzers investigating the woods on turn 45. Awesome, so I thought. I still held three flags, and many of my AT squads and machine guns survived.

However, the mission continued for another 9 turns! I know the mission length said 45+ (note the plus) turns, but I couldn't find how the actual length is determined in the included readme. Is it random? Does it continue while there is action? How long can the mission continue?

At turn 45, I would have had a sizeable victory. In the end at turn 54, my forces were completely wiped out other than my HQ in the rear. I still felt that I did well with taking out 8 Panzers, but it was a hollow feeling coming with the defeat. My forces certainly did much better than the first time when I got the draw.

So, I ask you, what other strategies can I use to fight the German invaders and fend off the Panzers? How "easy" should it be to get victory as the Russians in this mission?

Thanks for any help and for reading this long post!

- Tripwire6

[russellmz]

your initial draw was not hollow. since it is 45+ turns that means if there is a chance that one side can take the flags after the 45 turns, the game continues. so you hurt them enough the first time that the computer decided not to let the game go on.

in the next one they had enough fight left to let the game go on.

[MikeyD]

My strategy was to hide my anti-tank units until almost point-blank range, then concentrate on getting side shots against the PzIVs. The sooner the 75mm gun tanks are eliminated the better.

I haven't tried this yet, but I suspect it would be best to hide the KV-1S tanks deep in the riverbed and have them (hopefully) polish-off the PzIIIs as the come over the ridge one-by-one.

[Tripwire6]

So the mission continues as long as there is a chance of one side coming out on top? I wonder what is used to determine that, since things were much better the second time around and it continued? It stopped the first time when the Germans basically just needed to drive up to the flags.

I wondered the same thing about the KV-1S tanks. I also planned on trying one more time and waiting even longer to attack with the guns. Some of them seem to be so out in the open, that I wonder how close I can safely allow the Panzers to get? One way to find out, huh? I just don't want them discovering one or two guns and have the Germans eliminate them with the concentrated fire of 10 or more Panzers without my guns getting to fire back.

I should add that I've been impressed with the game so far. It takes a while for me to get in the right frame of mind to actually think my way through the tactics after years of RTS's.

Thanks for the replies! Keep them coming if you have more to add!

[Mannheim Tanker]

I agree with the comments re: setting up a nice kill sack in the riverbed. I found it best to use the Russian tanks as a fire brigade. Let the AT guns and rifles whittle down the German tanks. This will often stall a large portion of the German attack. You can then pull the Russian tanks forward to fire flanking shots at any German tanks that were lucky enough to survive the initial onslaught but are now stuck near the riverbed engaging the guns. By shooting and scooting, you can distract some of the Germans enough to the point that between your guns and ducking and jiving tanks, you'll probably be able to finish off the Germans ability to take the VLs. I managed to stop them cold the first time I tried this tactic (2nd battle as Russians overall vs. the AI).

[Snarker]

Originally posted by Tripwire6:

So the mission continues as long as there is a chance of one side coming out on top?

More precisely, if the turn limit is set to variable, the game may continue for up to 25% of the original battles lenght or up to a max of 10 turns, whichever is less.

Manual states one or more flags must have changed hands near the end of the battle for this to kick in.

[MikeyD]

Ah, another technique: Keep your guns hidden til the tanks are very close. Keep 'em buttoned up with anti-tank rifle fire. Then open up with a gun far to the left of the map. As the Panzers turn to fire on the first gun, unhide your other guns to the right of the map and try for a couple turret/hull rear shots

[tar]

In my first attempt as the Russians, I set up a cross-fire just ahead of the river bed. The plan was to shoot from the woods on the Russian left flank, and reverse slope positions from the hills on the right flank. I had about 8 of the AT guns set up, roughly 4 on each side. I had one AT gun set to harrass (and hopefully ambush from the rear) near the front -- it didn't work. The tanks were supposed to pop up from the right flank and get side shots in on the Germans from behind the hills. The priority for the AT guns was to kill the PzIVs since that would pretty much eliminate the threat to my own tanks.

The plan worked pretty well, although it turned out that I didn't check my AT gun placement as carefully as I should have. Some of my "reverse slope" deployments were visible from the front. Oops. In any case, the cross fire did allow for flank and rear shots, which disabled a number of the tanks. My HQ tank was taken out of the action with a gun hit after about 3 kills, but the remaining tank stayed active for the entire game. They played a cat and mouse game hunting up over the saddle between the hills, and then reversing out of sight. The AI never really did address that issue. (Of course, heading toward the tanks exposed the rear to AT guns, but mostly the AI seemed to have an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude toward the KV-1s -- a mistake that a human player would NOT make.)

My infantry AT teams didn't do much. (At least I didn't think so, but apparently they did imobilize one Pz III in the road through the scattered trees. I saw it at the end of the game) I also managed to hit one PzIII with two Molotov cocktails, but it seemed to pretty much shrug them off -- Grrrr!

The final reserve line never got breached. Only one or two German panzers made it into the riverbed, and they were dispatched by the KV-1s cleaning up stragglers.

[Tripwire6]

*** Demo Spoilers follow ***

Well, after reading the advice here, I loaded up one of my saves from right before major contact was made between the Russian AT guns and the Panzers. This was around turn 23 with my gun placement. I held off on the ambush for one more turn. Some of the Panzers were now within 200m of the AT guns. I triggered the ambush and did worse than the first time. Repeated attempts proved that the Panzers would spot my guns on their own if I let them get closer. Clearly my original placement (close to the original starting placement) and strategy failed.

To me I had about three failures. First, the AT guns would come into optimal range at different times. This either lead to a piecemeal attack or attacks that were largely ineffective for some of the guns. Second, my two tanks were easily killed with a dozen Panzers pot shotting them. Third, my AT infantry did almost nothing. The piecemeal attack seemed to be the biggest problem. Again, any time a dozen or more Panzers get to concentrate their fire on a few targets, the result is very predictable.

After checking out the terrain again, I decided that the ancient river bed would be my new kill zone. It would be the only kill zone as I wanted to concentrate all of my AT gun fire. I wish I had a screen shot, but here's a description.

I moved all of the 8 forward AT guns (4 were in the woods to the left, 4 on the ridge in front of the river bed). I reinforced the guns on the ridge behind the river bed with 3 of the guns. I extended the right flank and made sure to check all of the sight lies carefully. 3 more of the guns went on the back slope from the woods on the left. These were part way up the slope and between the woods and one of the flags. They had a great LOS through the river bed and helped set up a nasty crossfire. I placed 1 of the remaining guns in the back side of the woods. This one didn't have the best LOS, but it seemed necessary for containment. The remaining gun went near the flag on the left just in front of the field.

My Maxim's were placed along with the AT guns. Hopefully these would help button up the Panzers. I left a few AT squads with the guns. I would also let these bounce rounds off the Panzers, hopefully adding to the crews' stress levels. I stuffed a few extra AT squads in the woods to the left. I wanted the Germans to pay if they got too close. Another few AT squads protected the right flank. The last three went in the first copse of trees that the advancing Germans would encounter, placed on the backside hoping for a rear shot after the Panzers drove by. My tanks were placed in the woods behind the ridge.

The first turns were uneventful. My 3 advance AT squads did get spotted early, but they did get a short range broadside kill on a PzIII. 14 Panzers to go.

The next 20 turns were spent with me watching the Germans advance. They seemed to be grouping a little more towards the middle than what I considered to be prudent. I don't think a human player would have done this, but it had me salivating as I waited for them to enter my kill zone. One PzIV must have thrown a track, because it stopped out in the middle of the steppe. 13 to go or so I thought.

As the Panzers came over the ridge, one PzIV spotted a KV-1S of mine in the woods. They exchanged shots, with my KV-1S panicking, but managing to immobilize the PzIV. I had hoped the KV-1S's could remain concealed, but I guess that was asking too much. The panicked KV-1S reversed behind a hill and regained composure. The worst part of this is that the immobilized PzIV was outside the effective kill area of most of my AT guns and still had a live turret. Doh!

The main group of Panzers was now closing in on 200m from the closest of my AT guns on the ridge. They were about 400m or so from my 3 guns on the left flank, with great exposure. My AT gun in the left woods had no LOS on the main group of Panzers, but had a great 250m broadsize shot on the PzIV that my KV-1S had immobilized. Ha! It seems that Lady Luck is smiling on fools this day!

I set up the firing arcs. A few of the ridge guns had narrow arcs to concentrate their fire on the remaining 3 PzIV's. I ordered my KV-1S's to join the fray. My Maxim's were given specific targets. Get those Panzers buttoned up in a hurry. Last, my AT squads were also given targets. It didn't matter that their penetration percentage was NONE. I wanted the Germans worried!

I pressed Go.

Chaos ensued. AT rounds ricocheted everywhere. Smoke billowed from Panzers. I saw my previously panicked KS-1S take a disabling 75mm round from a PzIV. My gun in the woods did its job on the immobilized PzIV. Round one over. Carnage everywhere. There were about three remaining Panzers. A few of my guns on the ridge were knocked out and a few pinned. Several were still in the fight. All three of my guns on the left flank were still hammering away.

I gave my Maxim's cover arcs to make life hard for the surviving tank crew members. My remaining KS-1V only had PzIII's to deal with, so I sent it around a small hill in front of its woods on a hunt mission. Go!

Ack! One problem. The PzIV that had thrown the track way out on the steppe (about 1000m or so) had LOS on the ridge line and was plinking away at my AT guns with impunity. I missed this last turn. Sigh! No matter, my three guns on the left flank were deadly and were easily out of LOS from that PzIV. Round over. 12 disabled Panzers in my kill zone (the ancient river bed). 1 disabled on the ridge just above the river bed. 1 PzIV still firing from out on the steppe, and 1 PzIII disabled way back at the beginning. The tank crews were all cowering undering the burning hulks of their Panzers as the Maxims pounded away.

Ok, how do I get the last PzIV? Do I need to? No matter. The Germans surrendered completely giving my forces a much needed complete victory.

I don't believe that an experienced human player would have walked into this ambush like this. Of course, eliminate some of the gamey aspects (big ol Russian flag in the woods showing that I had troops there, limited map size meaning that my troops had to be concentrated somewhere, etc.) and it might still work.

Thanks for the help everyone. Demo mission 2 is up next.

[ October 01, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Tripwire6 ]

[Eden Smallwood]

I don't know if this would be "help", but I do have a different idea which seems to work fine.

I think about this scenario thusly: the mission is to STOP ALL TANKS AT ALL COSTS- if there is one PzIV left and my guns are gone, then I've lost this whole part of the Motherland. So.

To try to make the One Perfect Kill Zone has a high *variance*. Maybe this ATGun will take out zero tanks, maybe four. By the mission statement, I don't have that option if I can instead almost *guarantee* that I will trade an ATG for at least one tank... See what I mean?

So instead of one massive kill pocket, I arrange my guns in a "herringbone", or like a zipper- I want every single gun to have a seriously good chance of contacting *only* one or two tanks at a time, and I want every gun to be hidden from the Axis approach point of view, (so that it can't be seen by a dozen tanks at once), and the approach to each gun to be *covered*, at least a little bit, by some other gun, probably one on the opposite side.

The desire is to chew away at the Axis, bit by bit as he advances; my job thus becomes easier as time goes on. This is because the fragility of these guns is kind of a constant- once one starts firing, why... it's got just a little while to live, in the "normal" case.

The Rifles, as you've noticed, are completely worthless as far as taking out a tank. But aha- they are not completely worthless, completely(!), if used for what they *can* do. They can bother, pester, button up, and *draw fire* as a prelude to letting the big boys open up, now that Panzer boy is preoccupied with something in the other direction. Therefore, I stick these rifles where I can guide Axis' attention, sometimes even the tanks themselves.

Anyway. It works. Here's a pic, (I can't stick the pic right in this post, don't ask), but here you can see one of the "rungs" on my zipper-ladder strategy. This is Total Victory on turn 31. Many of my big guns have not even been encountered yet- Axis can start to go nuts, at which point I'll just open fire with everyone, regardless of position, and move both tanks in for the final death throes. But only if it's "safe"!

http://www.angelfire.com/mac/programming/cmbb/Cluster.html

Remember to ShootScoot your tanks as much as possible, but only if they will not be staring at the front of multiple panzers!!

Hth,

Eden