Inf. under Arty

[rhudat]

here's the deal;

i have a platoon in a small area of woods.

i already see spotting rounds coming in +

i know my troops are about to get a barrage on there heads. its probably H+I fire because i don't think he knows i'm there for sure.

question is;

would it be better to split my squads and set them up in several areas of the woods or leave them dispersed as full squads? the woods are only 50 by 50 meters and i believe the arty is 81mm or maybe 105's.

next question;

should i stay hunkered down now or start trying to disperse and take a chance of getting hit on the move?

[Peaveyyyyyyyy]

Make him waste his arty, by hitting 'withdraw', and running the boys back aout of range, unless:

1) There is nowhere for them to go

and

2) You're sure it's only 81mm Mortar.

The 81's won't hurt too bad, especially if it's area fire. :cool:

Treebursts can be nasty. I believe the allies have something called VT artillery???

:confused:

which is designed to treeburst, so it may make a difference which side you play.

[Juju]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhudat:

would it be better to split my squads and set them up in several areas of the woods or leave them dispersed as full squads? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whatever you do DO NOT split your squads to protect them from arty . Their morale will only become more vulnerable, and in no will will the splitting of squads in this case gain you any advantage. Your options are: Withdraw, advance or stay put. If it's 81mm stay put, and you will weather the storm. If it's 105 or bigger get the hell out.

BTW, 81mm is absolutely useless against dug-in troops in woods or tall pines.

Furthermore, (aimed, i.e. spotted) arty barrages are always oriented east/west. you might take that into consideration when fleeing from a bombardment. A spotter that is firing blind will produce a larger round pattern, however.

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: Juju ]

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: Juju ]

[Moriarty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peaveyyyyyyyy:

Make him waste his arty, by hitting 'withdraw', and running the boys back aout of range, unless:

1) There is nowhere for them to go

and

2) You're sure it's only 81mm Mortar.

The 81's won't hurt too bad, especially if it's area fire. :cool:

Treebursts can be nasty. I believe the allies have something called VT artillery???

:confused:

which is designed to treeburst, so it may make a difference which side you play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

81mm mortar rounds will "treeburst," i.e. explode in the canopy. Although not as effective as larger rounds, they still can inflict casualties if they're on target.

[rhudat]

tx. alot of good info.

i can only hope they are 81's

i have nowhere to run.

[nedlam]

I recently played a PBEM where we both had a fair ammount of artillery to play with. The deciding factor (IMHO) was he was stuck out in the open (more or less), where I was hunkered down in a village. Sure after a few turns the buildings started falling down around us but in the end he took the worst of it. So stay in the woods some cover is better than no cover at all. You might suffer some casualties but the overall moral of the unit has a better chance of staying intact.

Nedlam

[xerxes]

Get out of those woods for the sake of your men!!

Even 81s will hurt, 105s might shatter them.

Woods, your infantry and enemy artillery are a lethal combo (for you). It's better to be in the open.

- marc

[PiggDogg]

If you are under arty fire of more that 81 mm mortars, withdraw like hell into cover & out of the effective line of fire of your opponent's infantry & vehicles. 105 mm, 4.2 inch, 120 mm, & larger will wack the crappe out of your men. 4.5 inch, 150 mm, & larger will destroy your men. :eek: :eek:

If, as a result of your withdrawal, you have to withdraw into the effective line of fire of your opponent's infantry & vehicles, you got a problem. In this case, just run far enough to get out of the effective LOF.

Cheers, Richard

[Specterx]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peaveyyyyyyyy:

Make him waste his arty, by hitting 'withdraw', and running the boys back aout of range, unless:

1) There is nowhere for them to go

and

2) You're sure it's only 81mm Mortar.

The 81's won't hurt too bad, especially if it's area fire. :cool:

Treebursts can be nasty. I believe the allies have something called VT artillery???

:confused:

which is designed to treeburst, so it may make a difference which side you play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only the Americans have VT artillery. It's not really designed to "treeburst" as such. The way it works is a small radar unit contained within the shell detonates the charge when something comes within a certain distance of the shell (i.e. the ground). This produces a similar effect to treebursts, i.e. shrapnel is thrown across a wide area of ground under the explosion and coverage is more "complete" than with a conventional howitzer round explosion, which often results in large "uncovered" areas around the detonation site as shrapnel is exploded not only outwards but upwards.

Hope that helps .

[edgars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xerxes:

Get out of those woods for the sake of your men!!

Even 81s will hurt, 105s might shatter them.

Woods, your infantry and enemy artillery are a lethal combo (for you). It's better to be in the open.

- marc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot agree with you here.

I was playing a PBEM some time ago, and had a 81mm mortar spotter. So, when i saw that my opponent moved 2 platoons or so of infantry in some scattered trees (and hid them), I ordered those 81mm tubes to fire. After the game I asked him about casualties, he said that he took some but no more than 2 per squad (US). Certainly the casualties would be have been higher if I could have catched him in the open. Some cover is better cover than no cover at all.

Maybe it is useful to HIDE your troops when facing 81mm mortars?

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Specterx:

Only the Americans have VT artillery. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Americans and Free French get 105 and 155 VT, the British get 25lbr and 5.5in VT.

[Specterx]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

The Americans and Free French get 105 and 155 VT, the British get 25lbr and 5.5in VT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I've only seen Ami players use them, and I almost always play Axis in QBs.. oh well, live and learn.

[xerxes]

If the some cover is trees, the cover hurts more than it helps. Treebursts are nasty, better to let the shells land in the dirt. You might get lucky staying put with 81mm coming down, if you are unlucky, you will get some nearby treeburts which will be painful. Another nice trick is to pin with the smaller caliber arty and then finish with the bigger stuff. Moving to get out from under the arty is generally a good idea unless you have hard cover (buildings). If the arty is smaller caliber (less than 120mm) and you are entrenched I think it's good to wait out the barrage.

Then again, I haven't run extensive tests and everyone has their own tactics which is one thing that makes CM so interesting.

- marc

[tecumseh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xerxes:

Then again, I haven't run extensive tests<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A while back i ran tests on guns, not infantry, but i assume the modelling is similar. Against non-VT arty the best spots were in rough and behind a wall (half the blasts then have no/little effect coz they're on the other side of it).

The worst spot was in heavy trees, as xerxes said. i can't remember much of a difference between scattered trees and open, but i would wager scattered trees are better... Not many treebursts and enough cover to make groundbursts must less effective maybe?

Against VT arty being out in the open = dead.

As a general rule i move any infantry being hit by arty. One reason is because that means my enemy knows where they are (or has guessed correctly) so

keeping them there gives him an advantage anyway.

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[xerxes]

I've also noticed that most of my artillery targeting "errors" are when I get a partial turn of bombardment in and think I can really pound a platoon into the dirt so I leave the barrage targeted. Every time I do that my opponent moves out from underneath pretty much unscathed leaving me cursing. I don't think I've ever caught someone for that second turn bombardment. When I played Jeb he must have done the bombard dodge thing 5 or 6 times. Very frustrating.

My beliefs about effective artillery are:

1. never leave a bombardment in place for more than a partial turn.

2. constantly drop spotting rounds near where you think you might need them

3. Adjust, adjust, adjust. It's a lot better to adjust on top of someone.

4. Spot between two potential "targets", make them guess where you are going to drop the payload.

5. Concentrate lighter and heavier artillery together to help pin and than destroy.

6. Adjust to delay a bombardment if you want to hold off for a couple of minutes (this is critical with conscript and green FOs, their delay is so long that you have to start spotting 5-6 minutes before you can FFE). Adjusting can hold off the barrage until you want to unload.

7. Catch the enemy in the woods if possible.

8. Move some FOs up with your advance to target those out of LOS areas in an attack.

9. Wait until the enemy masses infantry for the big attack.

10. Hold some bigger artillery back until late in the game. Running out of artillery allows the enemy to mass without fear.

I don't remember to do all these things, but I'm trying. I've learned this from my mistakes and playing with some good people who taught me painful lessons.

- marc

[edgars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xerxes:

If the some cover is trees, the cover hurts more than it helps.

- marc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just run a Quick Test™ to figure this out.

There was 3 German Rifle44 platoons: one in the open, one in scattered trees, one in woods. Each platoon was targeted by a Regular US 81mm mortar spotter, and shelled for almost whole turn.

I repeated the test 10 times.

Casualties:

Platoon in woods: 3.9 casualties average

Platoon in scattered trees: 3 casualties average

Platoon in the open: 5 casualties average

I understand that the test sample of 10 is to low to draw any major conclusions, and I have no idea about statistics as such. I did this test just to have a better understanding of the subject. Hope it helps.

[Sig]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ciks:

(snip)

Maybe it is useful to HIDE your troops when facing 81mm mortars?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello,

Indeed it helps. Never really tested other than in battles. First time I noticed that was when my green german soldiers (under command) where caught in wood by an artillery barrage (was 75mm or 81mm, not sure). I hid them and the level of casualties was laughable if you consider they were bombarded for some 4 to 5 turns: lost something like 3 (it was a platoon). The only serious other casualties where the soldiers I ordered to move out of the woods during the bombardement: 1 Panzerfaust team (KIA), 1 HMG team (lost 3), one HQ (lost 1).

So my opinion: hiding when you cannot (or don't want to) run to a safer place before Hell breaks out helps *a lot*!

Disclaimer: this is purely based on my personnal observations during various battles. No scientific tests have been conducted. Statistical significance has not been checked. (bah, in fact I'm too lasy to test...)

Sig

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: Sig ]

[xerxes]

You've gotten me curious, I'll have to run some tests.

- marc

[MoatnGator]

The first thing is to hide and evaluate. Let them be for a round... check their stats. No casualties...then let it go another round. During this time, if possible, send some flanking units in to try and spot the artty firing position.

If you can withdraw to the far side. This goes without saying that you would not charge to the front side of the clearing where his machine guns would rip your men worse. Plus, he would have direct fire with narrower spreads, b/c he would be able to see you.

After hunkering down and letting him waste his arty or withdrawing yoour troops to the far side of the woods, it is now your turn.

Firing blindly at woods, wastes ammo. Unless those woods are dense with troops. What you need to do is move to contact with your infantry and expose as much troops as possible. When heavy infantry lines are found, or even a cluster of tanks, call in the offboard stuff. After the positions are weakened use the smaller on board stuff to weaken stubborn positions. Lastely mop up with an infantry sweep. After this create an infantry screen and move in the tanks to a closer SBF (support by fire) position.

Above all as mentioned DO NOT split your squads as morale plummets under artty.

Hope this helps