Pirate Bill Posted September 10, 2000 Share Posted September 10, 2000 OK, I just finished the Carentan operation as the Germans. The Americans took over 1000 casualties, half of them fatal. They had just 53 men left. Every single one of their vehicles had been knocked out. On the German side, I had taken about 250 casualties with about 400 men left. I had lost my assault halftrack and the Puma, along with 20 assorted trucks and Kubelwagens (mostly abondoned when nowhere near any fighting! Damn wussy drivers... ), but all of my SPW 250/1s were still operational. Oh yeah, and Fallshirmjagers were occupying St. Come-du-Mont and both the towns on the right flank. So what I want to know is, given all that, how the heck did the operation get ruled a "Allied Minor Victory"!? [This message has been edited by Pirate Bill (edited 09-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Posted September 10, 2000 Share Posted September 10, 2000 This just happened to me in A WALK IN PARIS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeWary Posted September 11, 2000 Share Posted September 11, 2000 That IS weird. Some questions come to mind: Did you hold all of the victory flags? Maybe the Allies had a number of objectives and achieved one or two of them? BeWary ------------------ "Liberty or Death?" Make it "Victory or Pretty Damned Badly Wounded", and I'm yours. - a prospective recruit during the American Revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Man Posted September 11, 2000 Share Posted September 11, 2000 Perhaps there were bonus points added or subtracted... The Ops designer would jave to answer that.I am working on a scenario with a similar problem..I was playing as the Americans.Their Buy points were twice as much,3000 to 1500.The Germans surrendered and It said it was a Draw.I imagine my losses were much costlier than theres and pointwise it calculated a draw..I only used one flag and I need to make it worth more,,but I dont think that is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Posted September 11, 2000 Share Posted September 11, 2000 BeWary: I know you addressed your question to Pirate Bill but do you have any theories about why the same thing might have happened to me? I kicked butt as the Allies in A WALK IN PARIS, with at least a 5:1 casualty ratio and prisoners galore, with none of my troops taken. All victory flags were captured and held from Turn 15. The rout was so complete that the Germans should have surrendered by turn 20; it was a turkey shoot after that and the biggest failure of AI I have experienced in this otherwise excellent game. Even while all this was happening, my morale never went above 68 and my Victory score stuck at 53. My only theory is this: I don't like to "cheat" but I saved the game at Turn 7 in order to replay some tank maneuvers and learn how to defeat the formidable German armor. I continued with the battle when the outcome was a little more favorable to me. I hated myself in the morning. Might this have influenced the final score? [This message has been edited by Ice (edited 09-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted September 11, 2000 Share Posted September 11, 2000 First of all this is a game and unless you are in a tournament you cannot cheat. But, as a true wargammer I know the feeling if you save... My spouse who has no clue about tactics saves and replays moves all the time. She is learning tactics every game she plays that I would never use. She looks over my shoulder every now and then and says, "try this" i do it and it works. Then I read about the little move I made and it shows up in somebody's first person story from a real battle???? go figure. Allied minor victory, tactical.... whatever, a win is a win...not until there is a campaign version of this game will it matter. ------------------ "Victory smiles upon those who anticipate the changes in the character of war, not upon those who wait to adapt themselves after they occur." General Guilio Douhet 1920 [This message has been edited by GonzoAttacker (edited 09-11-2000).] [This message has been edited by GonzoAttacker (edited 09-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeWary Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 ICE, Well, I'm not one of the CM programmers (of which there was only one from what I understand), so I don't really know what happened to your game. However, like Gonzo says, a win is a win, and it doesn't effect your future games. That being said, it would be nice to have a greater understanding of how the score is tallied. I also had a battle that I thought should have been much higher than a "Minor Victory". Ok, here's my new idea. Perhaps more important than how many flags you take and how many enemy you kill is how many of your men and machinery you lose? You may have a huge win, with lots of men left, but maybe you lost a lot of armor? On that note, I seem to remember that I got the "Minor Victory" in Elsdorf even though I had 400 men OK, and the Germans had 20. I had all victory flags. BUT, I lost around 12 armored vehicles, IIRC. The Germans lost around 18 vehicles. Perhaps that plays a large part in reducing scores. After all, those things are expensive and losing them wastes time and money, probably delaying advances and giving the enemy more time to build up their defenses. BeWary ------------------ "Liberty or Death?" Make it "Victory or Pretty Damned Badly Wounded", and I'm yours. - a prospective recruit during the American Revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Hmmmm, very interesting. You may well be right. I did lose several tanks but two Shermans lost for every one Tiger destroyed seems to be a reasonably acceptable rate of attrition in this game. I may have to hug my armor a little more. When I played the Chambois scenario I lost much of my armor -- not all -- but eliminated all the enemy vehicles and scored a Major victory. In that scenario the ongoing Victory tally seemed to reflect my territorial advantage where in PARIS it didn't. Oh well, now I'm off to Aachen, wish me luck and thanks for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michlos Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 I would definately think that the total amount of troops you have lost will make a difference. Lets say you play allied and you have 500 infantry troops and 200 axis troops. If you manage to kill 150 of their troop while losing 400 of your own then even if you have twice the amount of troops left at the end, you will still have lost 80% while axis have lost 75%. Just my 2 c. worth ------------------ < All gave some, some gave ALL> Owner of MiNa's CMBO Page http://come.to/combatmission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 Originally posted by BeWary: "Did you hold all of the victory flags? Maybe the Allies had a number of objectives and achieved one or two of them?" Victory Flags don't exist in Operations, only battles. Operations come in 3 varieties, all of which are explained in the operation scenario design section of the manual. Unfortunately, none of the 3 varieties seem to explain why you lost this operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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