Idea for using flamethrowers on defense

[CombinedArms]

I've recently been PBEMing a scenario defending a town surround by extensive fields. I was given several flamethrower teams. I've always had trouble figuring out how to use these guys, since they're slow, easily spotted, and readily killed.

But I got an idea for using them on defense that seems to be working. I placed them hiding widely space in the second line of buildings with flanking infantry support. In general the buildings in front block direct LOS to the flamethrowers, but they're within range of the next line of buildings. But I can spot the enemy attackers from other positions. My plan was to flame the first line of buildings as the enemy was entering them from the other side. So far this seems to be working well. I've killed a couple of HTs, burned a few buildings, and panicked several squads, and only lost one FT so far. I could burn the buildings in advance but that would not be as effective or as much fun.

Sort of an urban variant of the forest ambush w/ FTs.

[ April 27, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Louie the Toad]

"Smoke em if you got em !"

Duck, here come the 'gamey birds'... Toad

[Thermopylae]

err actually, he wa susing the flamethrowers to burn identified target, not radnomly light the village on fire...so a greta gamey arguement has been averetd...

[BloodyBucket]

Gamey? No.

Funny? Yes.

(Unless someone does it to me)

[Auggy]

Great idea but once the building is burned can't they stand off and kill the ft's?

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by Sir Augustus:

Great idea but once the building is burned can't they stand off and kill the ft's?

Not if they are on the other side of the burning building (no LOS). But generally, yes it would probably be prudent to move the FT teams away once they've been spotted so they can ambush again.

[Silvio Manuel]

The German infantry FT teams are a little easier to escape with- they have 'medium' speed instaed of the Allies' 'slow' speed for both US/UK. In practice, even the German ones are too slow to stand a chance of maneuvering after being detected...they take one hit and prolly get routed from it.

Maybe use on/off map smoke to help 'em escape? Reverse slope to retreat behind, or just fire support from other units.

EDIT: They seem to thrive in very closed defenses...lots of houses, ridges, or woods available to help break contact with.

[ April 30, 2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

EDIT: They seem to thrive in very closed defenses...lots of houses, ridges, or woods available to help break contact with.

That's part of my idea here. Hiding in the house provides cover as the attackers approach--and I try to find setups that limit or eliminate angled shots from vehicles--so mid-street, w/ houses on both sides. Then you can retreat through the house and escape out the back or side when pressed.

Exposed FTs seem to die almost instantly, so the key to using them in CM seems to be to supply cover right up to the moment of firing with buildings, smoke, trees, etc. In CM this is much easier to do on defence, though in RL I think FTs were chiefly attack weapons.

The building method can also work on attack, though. Move the FT through a secured house (maybe on the upper floor if lower is occuppied by your squads) and then use to flame an enemy-occupied building across the street. Street widths in CM are such that the house is usually w/in range.

[CombinedArms]

Actually, I was just now fooling around with FTs in an urban attack, planning to move one through a bulding to flame the building ahead, as described above, and I got a very graphic reminder of just how vulnerable the FT footsoldiers really are.

As the turn began, I was moving a US FT team from scattered trees into the back of a building. There was about a 5m gap of open space between trees and building. 95m away, a German squad, in classic AI fashion, had just run onto pavement to attack some infantry under cover in a building and was taking fire from about 5 squads and MGs, some only 10-20 meters away. When the turn began, this Axis Security Squad, ignoring all the fire pouring in on them from close range, immediately spotted the FTs 95m away as then came briefly into the open and killed both team members dead with crossfire w/in 8 seconds of the start of the turn. The German squad was dead before the turn was out, but somehow the FTs seem to had a big sign on them saying:

SEE ME. SHOOT ME. I WILL DIE EASILY.

Hence the need to keep them in cover at ALL times.

[Kiltie Lad]

That had to hurt! I rarely have luck with FT's. Usually they never even get a chance to fire their weapon. I have, however, been rudely surprised by some of these s popping up at the edge of a wood upon which I was advancing and ruining my day. Before I could bring fire down upon them, they displaced to another woodlot behind the first and waxed me again! I yanked an Iron Cross off a body and walked over to the FT team and pinned it on them myself!

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

The German squad was dead before the turn was out, but somehow the FTs seem to had a big sign on them saying:

SEE ME. SHOOT ME. I WILL DIE EASILY.

Hence the need to keep them in cover at ALL times.

On defense it hard to have them fall back w/o being killed due to exposure...and...do you *really* want to waste your smoke rounds for such a thing? On-map mortar smoke is pretty unreliable in my exp. Maybe tank smoke is better suited for that.

They need poor visibility for survival too...otherwise just buy a nice Badger FT vehicle and have a field day. Flammpanzer sounds like bliss too, though I've never used one.

[Mud]

Borg spotting + needing to go into street instead of direct building->building moves + high-priority target = bullet magnet. Unless you've got so much firepower locally that everybody nearby is suppressed, or it's night and spotting/IDing becomes that much harder, FTs have it rough. Hm. Anybody have stats on how effective they were in real life, and how they were actually used?

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Mud:

Borg spotting + needing to go into street instead of direct building->building moves + high-priority target = bullet magnet. Unless you've got so much firepower locally that everybody nearby is suppressed, or it's night and spotting/IDing becomes that much harder, FTs have it rough. Hm. Anybody have stats on how effective they were in real life, and how they were actually used?

Against defender who already retreated so far into their hideouts that they didn't shoot back, at least not the direction the flamethrower approaches from. In areas that have been cleared from activly firing enemies. Which doesn't mean all gave up, they may sit stubborn in their bunkers, cellars, caves or whatever.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by redwolf:

]Against defender who already retreated so far into their hideouts that they didn't shoot back, at least not the direction the flamethrower approaches from. In areas that have been cleared from activly firing enemies. Which doesn't mean all gave up, they may sit stubborn in their bunkers, cellars, caves or whatever.

In short, they were highly effective in the Pacific, where you've got naval gunfire and unopposed tanks to drive the enemy deep into pillboxes or caves, and lots of cover on the approach. They're really hard to use on the attack in CM, in part because you rarely get the mucho artillery and overwhelming fire ascendency for suppression they need to be effective. Plus they do seem to die quicker than any other unit in CM.

Seems to require skill plus luck to get any effect. When they do get to fire, they're devastating, but if I were going to BUY a flamethrower, I'd get a vehicle.

[ May 01, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[zukkov]

right. the ft's were used to finish off suppressed troops that either wouldn't or couldn't fire back(i'm talking offensively that is). i don't believe they were ever intended to come under fire from enemy troops...

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

You can say that again.

I remember a battle some time ago when I had a flame thrower.

Conditions were fairly good, with a night battle in dense fog...

The FT crew was regular, and they got a supressed enemy squad 9m in front of them to target.

- Woosshh!

First flame shot out at an angle about 45 degrees left of the target, missing completely.

- Reloading and compensating.

- Woosshh!

Second flame shot out at an angle about 45 degrees right of the target, missing completely.

- Reloading and compensating.

By now the enemy squad had recovered slightly, which was all they needed to finish off the FT team!

Cheers

Olle

[zukkov]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms:

You can say that again.

I remember a battle some time ago when I had a flame thrower.

Conditions were fairly good, with a night battle in dense fog...

The FT crew was regular, and they got a supressed enemy squad 9m in front of them to target.

- Woosshh!

First flame shot out at an angle about 45 degrees left of the target, missing completely.

- Reloading and compensating.

- Woosshh!

Second flame shot out at an angle about 45 degrees right of the target, missing completely.

- Reloading and compensating.

By now the enemy squad had recovered slightly, which was all they needed to finish off the FT team!

Cheers

Olle</font>

LOL.. that was one nervous ft crew!

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by zukkov:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms:

You can say that again.

I remember a battle some time ago when I had a flame thrower.

Conditions were fairly good, with a night battle in dense fog...

The FT crew was regular, and they got a supressed enemy squad 9m in front of them to target.

- Woosshh!

First flame shot out at an angle about 45 degrees left of the target, missing completely.

- Reloading and compensating.

- Woosshh!

Second flame shot out at an angle about 45 degrees right of the target, missing completely.

- Reloading and compensating.

By now the enemy squad had recovered slightly, which was all they needed to finish off the FT team!

Cheers

Olle</font>

LOL.. that was one nervous ft crew!</font>

[CombinedArms]

BTW, my originally posted tactic of using hidden FTs to flame buildings across the street as they are entered by enemy troops is going swimmingly. It not only panics the enemy troops, often driving them either back out of the combat zone or forward to their certain deaths in buildings occupied by me, but it also creates permanent barriers through which the attack can't flow.

Not gamey IMHO because I'm always targeting building either entered or about to be entered by enemy troops. And it's nice to see the FTs dishing it out instead of just taking it. Now, please, nobody try this on me!

One little snag. I found the FTs wouldn't flame a directly adjacent building (separated by a narrow space). Apparently that's too close for FT comfort. But by retreating slightly into the building you can get it to work (though I panicked my FT team as well as setting the enemy building aflame.)

[ May 02, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[zukkov]

a friend just sent me a pbem scenario in which i have 2 ft teams. the map is hilly and heavily wooded, and there's fog. my mission is to destroy all his forces. it's an all infantry battle. any suggestions as how to use my ft's. my plan is to keep them safely behind my main force and try to suppress him, then bring in the ft's for the kill. or maybe i should just start burning the woods indescrimately. lol....

[CombinedArms]

Is it an attack, a meeting engagement or are you on defense? Tactics would vary dependings.

[ May 02, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[zukkov]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

Is it an attack, a meeting engagement or are you on defense? Tactics would vary dependings.

ME. and i have no idea what he has except he promises it's an inf only engagement.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by zukkov:

ME. and i have no idea what he has except he promises it's an inf only engagement.

Well, knowing it's "infantry only" tells you a great deal. The next question is, do you plan to:

1) let him take the VLs and hammer away at him there

2) rush the VLs and hold on, forcing him to push you out

These are the two basic options in MEs and you should make your choice based on terrain and forces available. For example, if it's infantry only and you've loaded up on lots of heavy arty and the VL cover is thin, you might want to let him have the VLs and hammer him there.

OTOH, if you've got high-firepower short range infantry like SMGs or paratroops, and the VLs have good cover, you might want to take the VLs and chew his infantry up when he gets close.

Let's say you choose the first option--letting him have VLs and hammering with arty: then use your arty to hammer, your infantry to suppress and bring the FTs in very late through good cover and under cover of smoke to finish the job. Keep in mind that any cover you burn is cover you can't use.

If you choose the 2nd option--holding the VLs-- then hide your FTs in good cover and let them ambush the enemy at short range.

It can be helpful to move attacking FTs around in an HT until needed, but it sounds like you don't have those.

Let's

[ May 04, 2002, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[zukkov]

thanks for the tips. i have no offboard arty, only a couple of onboard 81's and 1 60mm mortars(fairly useless in these circumstances i should think). i think i'll go for option 2 and try to take the single VL on the map, then hold on. the troops are mostly veterans, so my morale should be ok. anyway, thanks again!

[Silvio Manuel]

OK, so now I really like the infantry FT teams. In one battle, defending w/ Ami Eng. Coy, I had 1 FT rout a Company HQ and a Sturmgruppe Sq, who were then mopped up by inf. and two M8 HMC on a cavalry run through scattered trees. The German inf. had been scouts and had no support, so it was a bit easy.

About 50m away, another FT set on ambush blazed its targeted large building when a Crack MG42 strolled in, just dropped off from a 251/1. I can't complain, easy routing is fun. Its hard to say how this would have worked if my opponent used more infantry or some overwatch, though.

I had another ambush set up w/ 1 Vet. Eng. Pn, 2 FT's, and 2 bazookas, but a Squad killed the StuH 42 first w/ a rifle grenade at 10m. Another 20m fwd and the StuH would have gotten the double-torch.

In another battle tonight, I got a British Coy plus 1 Eng.Pn (1 FT). Its was an ME in overcast conditions, and I was lucky to only take 1 casualty moving the FT in. I was able to torch a house by the only large flag (routing 2 kraut units) w/ the last ammo point. Great fun.

[ May 07, 2002, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]