Active IR equipped Panther photo here

[John Kettler]

At last a reason for some of you to revisit your former haunt! Some of our confreres went to a special exhibit at a Koblenz museum and apparently photographed a rare bird indeed, a Panther with pioneering late war nightfighting IR gear fitted. I don't know a) whether it's original to the tank shown; an add-on later by the museum staff, using the fragile, but correct, equipment from somewhere else, or c) just a great full scale, realistic mockup, but it looks real to me. I've pinged the Koblenz visitors for more info.

This tank, others like it, and the Uhu (owl) 251 variant armed with a powerful IR searchlight to extend engagement range for the relatively short range Panthers, which have small illuminating lamps compared to the Uhu, all belong in CMBB, but almost certainly are not, being a huge headache to code.

Be that as it may, you can see a picture of one at

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=026320;p=

Regards,

John Kettler

[ September 09, 2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[von Lucke]

From what I've read, the IR Panther (and it's infraotsscheinwerfer pal) only saw action once, and that was in the West, against the Americans.

[gunnergoz]

Very lucky for all of us (especially the Russkis) that the Germans only got that technology out in the closing days of the war. Imagine the havoc that a Wermacht that "owned the night" could have wreaked upon its opponents. This technology was literally a war-winner but came on too late to be of much impact.

Granted, there are severe limitations to the use of active IR in a battle where your opponent is equipped with passive IR (at least). One could envision a whole period of several months that the Germans could have ruled the battlefields they fought on, until counter-technology could have been fielded.

[Moon]

Actually counter-technology would have been fielded very quickly, as there are a number of chemical substances which react to IR light, which were already known back then. So you could quickly locate the IR lightsources even without having any kind of complicated technology at hand. Additionally to that, the performance of those early war active IR devices was extremely poor outside of the lit area. So you really needed flood lights to do much of use for something like a tank. Now imagine having to advance with this kind of equipment.

It took into the 60s before a more appropriate military technology was developed and put into use, so I don't think it would have been war-winning for the Germans within reasonable expectations.

Still cool to see, though

[gunnergoz]

Moon, that's my point, though I may not have said it exacly well.

Imagine the Germans popping the technology at say, the Bulge...I could conceive of them laying waste to US armor in that time frame, with complete impunity. Perhaps they could have reached Antwerp, who knows.

Sure, I know that you needed the big IR lights to illuminate the enemy. The Germans had plans to put them on half-tracks just for that purpose. Under the right circumstances, the IR tech might have been just the edge that the Germans needed in such a close-fought battle. Once you get the enemy running and feeling outclassed, you have the initiative.

I won't go on about it, other than to say that it could have had a significant impact at some point, if introduced with intent to get maximum effect. The point is, it would have made night-time operations a viable means of offensive action and the Germans could have used that to their advantage in such a scenario, putting pressure on the US both day and night. A force multiplier, as it were, for as long as they could depend upon the edge.

BTW and as you doubtless know, active IR was a widely used component of postwar Russian and western armor and it is still found on the former, especially for driving lights, to this day. It has it's (limited) place.

[Moon]

Imagine the Germans popping the technology at say, the Bulge...I could conceive of them laying waste to US armor in that time frame, with complete impunity. Perhaps they could have reached Antwerp, who knows.

From all I know (which is "a little bit" from my previous job at an optics company with no small engagement in night vision equipment) I doubt the result would have been that dramatic. That technology was simply not effective enough to have gained the Germans such an edge. Even with massive lighting, the effective engagement range was fairly short, simply because those devices lacked the kind of resultion to allow the crew to spot and identify and reliably hit a target at anything but short distances. Add to this the simple countermeasures (for example white light, which totally blinds the active IR equipment) on the one side, and the immense effort on the other (power generators for one), and it's hard to see the force multiplier.

BTW and as you doubtless know, active IR was a widely used component of postwar Russian and western armor and it is still found on the former, especially for driving lights, to this day. It has it's (limited) place.

Hehe... headlights by definition can only be active Thing is, any passive starlight scope can pick up the IR from such headlights, and that is exactly what is used by the crews. The active IR system the Germans had used was not a starlight scope. It *required* the IR light to see anything, whereas postwar equipment picks up ambient light and amplifies it, and works (fairly) well without additional artifical illumination (but it works better with )

So don't confuse the fact that there is an IR lamp with an active IR system. What is defining the system part is the device at the receiving end, and since the 60s (a bit later in Russia) it's not the so-called Generation 0 scope anymore

Martin

[Jeff Cansell]

I believe that the Panther in question was built after the war ended - in the MAN factory by german workers under british supervision.

It was one of several to be completed for trials purposes. This has led to much confusion as to what a 'standard' late production Panther should actually look like.

For more info, take a look at the armour modelling forums on www.missing-lynx.com

[tools4fools]

Originally posted by Jeff Cansell:

I believe that the Panther in question was built after the war ended

Yep, that's what they said at the show as well. Completed after the war.

Not a captured tank, never saw action.

Still a beauty...

[John Kettler]

von Lucke,

I don't have the references handy, but my recollection is that IR equipped Panthers not only saw action, but that some of that action was against the Soviets, who at first thought they'd run into a minefield. Further, the special 251 wasn't a pipedream but was built and fielded. My Bellona pub German Haltracks has a photo of one.

A well trained force could indeed have done a lot of damage, but counterdetecting active IR isn't all that difficult--provided one has the requisite equipment. Without it, and not knowing what's happening, the resulting situation bears considerable resemblance to what our thermal imager equipped tanks did to the Iraqis--unanswered destruction.

Regards,

John Kettler