88mm artillery

[M Hofbauer]

(sorry, double post)

[ March 06, 2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Mattias:

In the German language version of Gander & Chamberlians book on German weapons the "Rohrlebensdauer" is set to:

2000-2500 (Kupfer-Fb)

6000 (Sintereisen-Fb)

The numbers are the same but this source seems to point at the Führungsringe / driving bands, the life of the barrel being dependent on the material used. Or is the "Fb" reference related to the composition of the charge??

M.

Fb probably means Führungsbänder, a synonym to Führungsringe.

btw, thanks for proving my point

on the issue of unorthodox indirect fire, what can I say, i just read in the diary of PzJäg Abt 38(SF) (the AT Btn of 2nd PzDiv) that during a withdrawal operation they fired their Marders (PzJäger 7,63PaK® auf Skoda 38) in an indirect fire artillery role. They had lined them up spaced 10meters apart and had manually calculated the rough barrel elevation, then fired off all their remaining ammo HE-impact and HE-skipping rounds before moving to their new location.

[Claus B]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

[QBI don't see how it can possibly be anything to do with the charge, whereas (despite the fact I don't sprechen Deutsche worth a damn) copper and sintered iron would seem like quite reasonable materials for driving bands. I'm rather surprised that the copper band should give a shorter barrel life than the sintered iron one, though.[/QB]

Hogg: "Encyclopedia of German Artillery of WWII" p. 259:

Of these four {propellants} Nitroglycerinpulver was the most powerfull, bulk for bulk, but at the same time it developed the highest flame temperature and thus caused the most erosion of the gun barrel. The others, owing to the absence of nitroglycerine in their structure was less powerfull but burned at lower temperatures and were thus less erosive.

According to Hahn, propellent with Nitroglyzerin was about the only type used up to 1936 when Diglykolpulver was introduced.

Whether this is explains the difference in barrel life for the 8,8cm FlaK, I dont know, but it does show that the type of propellant could play a role.

Claus B

[Gary T]

News reels show what the people filming want to show. "Here is a mighty German artillery battery all armed to the teeth with our wonder weapon - the 88mm" - if you were going to stage fire such a line up, you'd do it somewhere safe and point them in the air...

Well they must of done it pretty regularly - I've seen most of the Wochenschaus and a fair number have images of 88's firing in a seemingly indirect role - barrels over 30 degrees.

Why would you fake 88's firing? A 150mm/170mm/210mm firing is a much more impressive sight...anyhow there were plenty of 'live' firing going on without the need to fake stuff for the camera (talking artillery here BTW not infantry fighting)

I think everyone should remember the shortages the Germans had in artillery pieces and the problems of amassing enough artillery especially in breakthrough sectors. I'm sure that 88's were used to beef up such fire concentrations. After all they were equipped with the ability why not use it?

[Claymore]

Originally posted by edward_n_kelly:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mattias:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skipper:

> Does anyone know how much barrel wear was an issue for the 8,8?

Quite an issue. Especially when firing AT rounds - iirc, we are talking about about life expectancy less than 100 shots then. Several times more if firing HE.

Skipper,

Where have you read this? It strikes me as very odd considering the fact that an AA cannon is designed to deliver HE shells to great heights, something that is achieved by maximizing the Vo of these, HE, shells.

I'm pretty much certain that on some Flak 88's the HE shells actually had a higher Vo than the AP ammunition and unless there is something very special about the latter type of round the wear should not be higher when firing them.

--

Gander and Chamberlain puts the average service life of an early Flak barrel to 2000 - 6000 rounds depending on barrel type. The figure is reduced to 1500 on the Flak 41. Finally, on the Pak's the number would be 1200-2000.

M.</font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by Claymore:

My uncle-in-law owns a PAK (as well as numerous other goodies) ... Typically he popped off rounds from the 400-600m distance with solid AP shot he made himself. Since he has an overabundance of both machining facilities and money this has not been a problem.

OMG - how cool is that? You're a lucky fella Muzz :cool:

[Claymore]

Unfortunately I have not been around when he's taken the PAK out for a shoot. It would almost be worth a cross-continent trek through

I have had the chance though to fire off numerous rounds from his 20mm FLAK38 which he has mounted on the back of his pickup. Just imagine the looks we got pulling through the McDs drive through or on the I-75 with that puppy.

Cheers

Murray

[MikeyD]

As to higher MV for HE versus AP, most AP is usually designed to the very limit of a particular gun's capability. Why fire a round at 850ms when the breech can take enough pressure to push it to 880ms? A HE shell, on the other hand, is usually designed to a specific goal. 6 pound shell out to 14,00m for instance. The normal HE 75mm round on the Sherman was fired at chamber pressures almost half that of the HE. Even their HE 'supercharge' round didn't reach max pressure.

As to barrel wear, all high pressure guns have that problem. Modern U.S. 105mm and 120mm tank gun barrels are lined with chrome which increases barrel life substantially.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Gary T:

If you watch any of the numerous German newsreels from the war there are plenty of instances where 88's are being used in an indirect role in the Soviet Union.

We've discussed many times that newsreels are proof of very little; in this case, there is no way to know what the guns were being used for.