Rubble

[Cortes]

Recently, when it's come to city combat, I've been experimenting with various methods of cleaning out enemy infantry who, no doubt, are hiding in buildings with AT weaponry.

So, at first, I just sent in scout squads (or just a sharpshooter) to get a peek at the enemy and then pulled back, but this gets less and less useful, as the enemy always changes positions or kills my scouts.

So I just got tired of it, late last night, and called in a full wide target barrage on the city. In doing so, I wasted a lot of artillery I shouldn't have, but also got rid of quite a few pesky MGs and AT weapons.

My question is, without a doubt, what's the best way to clear out a city?

I've checked the noob (*whine*) guide and found a lot of conflicting views, so maybe if I just ask openly I could get a more personal answer.

Thanks.

[Fionn]

Cityfights are the preserve of infantry. Unfortunately they are also one of the most demanding types of terrains to fight in ( only dismounted attack over a hill crest on the forward slope of the opposing hill is more difficult IMO) so you shouldn't be surprised that you are finding it difficult.

There are NO quick fix solutions ( your solution of dropping artillery over the whole village, creating lots of rubble whilst killing few enemy soldiers is exactly the sort of thing the enemy is HOPING you will do). Remember, RUBBLE is a stronger defensive position than a standing house. There are many reasons for this but there is no need to go into them right now.

Solutions:

1. Avoid the village. Why not just go around the flanks of the village, encircle the forces in it, force them to redeploy to protect their flanks and rear ( In my experience only the very best CM players will set up 360 defensive positions and, frankly, if you're playing one of them you are probably on a hiding to nothing no matter what you do). When the enemy redeploys you get to see where they move to and can bring your artillery and tanks on line to fire on their new positions, whilst sending your infantry to attack somewhere else ( attack enemy weakness not enemy strength).

2. Become a better infantry commander. City fights ARE winnable. Not only are they winnable but it is possible to inflict 3 or 4 casualties on the defending enemy troops for every troop you lose. There's no particular single "wonder weapon or wonder tactic" which will give you those kinds of ratios. What you need to do is play LOTS and lots of infantry only games with infantry attacking and defending in all sorts of terrain and climate.

The standard of infantry play in CM is, generally, quite low and improvement in your command of infantry will pay you the biggest dividend in the long run. The way to improve your infantry play is to practice with them A LOT!!!

If you want to specifically improve your cityfighting I'd suggest two scenarios for you:

1. A scenario which came with the game and was created by yours truly. Play it as the British against a human ( or in a pinch AI) German player. It should definitely bring home the importance of not breaking into a city on too narrow a front and the importance of crossfires and depth in villages/cities .

2. Ask the guys behind the Tournament of Stars for the "Nightmare City Map" they did for my game with a friend in that tournament. It is an ME in a very "jagged" village at night with incredibly limited and unpredictable LOS. Play it with 1500 to 2000 points of ONLY INFANTRY per side ( no arty etc, just infantry) and see how you get on. Play it until you appreciate how the terrain shapes the flow of movement, the positions one should take up, how to identify key buildings, axes of fire etc.

FWIW you should only be happy when you can attack and get at least a 2 to 1 casualty ratio on that map. It has lots of opportunities for attacks, outflanking and crossfires if played well.

Then go back to normal village and city maps and apply the lessons learnt. You should be pleasantly surprised. Of course I want to state again that there are NO quick fixes and that the only way to actually really improve ( contrary to some of what might be said around here) is to play lots of games which are designed around learning specific points/gaining particular types of experience and asking well-known players for games and critiques ( although be sure that you can actually take the critiques in good spirit. Too many people ask for them and then act like little kids when they get given honest opinions.)

Well, hope that helps.

If you wanted one quick tip here goes:

Until you're really, really expert stay the hell away from village/city centres. Advance along the edges of villages and wait for the guys in the centre to come to you. If... as so, so, so many CM players I've played do... you drive straight for the centre you are just asking to walk into an L-shaped ( or even worse, C-shaped) ambush.

Ps. As always, you paid nothing for this advice, I gave it freely and it represents my best advice at the moment. If you don't like it feel free to ignore it but it is said only with the intention of giving you some pointers towards helping you improve your play which you can adopt or discard at your own leisure.

[ May 08, 2002, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Fionn ]

[xerxes]

techniques include:

1. mg (infantry and afv) fire lanes to isolate blocks and prevent shifting of the enemy

2. concentration of support fire

3. spec fire to activate enemy

4. smoke to cover a move

5. FTs to burn out buildings

6. direct HE fire (keep at a minimum 100m away from uncleared buildings, preferably further)

If you attack too narrowly you'll be cut to pieces by defilade.

If you don't pin down the defender, they will ambush, retreat, and repeat.

Onboard mortar smoke can help isolate the block you want to take.

[Fionn]

Just as an aside...

I'm sure Xerxes' tactics work very well for him but I think it may be interesting to point out that:

a) I try to ENCOURAGE shifting of the enemy. Therefore no need to isolate blocks with firelanes etc.

I don't believe in support fires for cityfighting ( except, perhaps, to shoot my scout line into the first row of buildings but usually don't even bother with that).

c) Never use speculative fire to activate the enemy. I only fire at spotted, discrete targets and concentrations.

d) I never use smoke in cities ( and rarely use it outside... I believe I've used smoke about a dozen times in about 500 PBEMs).

e) Never use FTs to burn out buildings ( unless it is a 251/16 of course but even then I find they end up slowing down my infantry advances)... Infantry advance far more quickly in cities if they aren't slowed down by vehicles etc.

f) Don't use direct HE fire. Prefer to use my tanks etc in the countryside around the village.

g) Am HAPPY not to pin down the enemy. See their movement as an opportunity for me to break their OODA loop and seize the initiative.

h) AGREE re: wide front attack ONLY if you are going through the centre of the village. When attacking the flanks you want to be narrow so that you are deep enough to withstand a sudden attack into the flank from the city centre.

i) Don't use smoke. I'd rather see the enemy and concentrate on routing him out with bayonets and SMGs.

So, two people with almost opposite approaches to cityfighting. I'd be willing to bet Xerxes is happy with his approach and I'm happy with mine. Further proof that there's no such thing as the "right" way to do anything in CM, just your way and ways others use.

[Redwolf]

Well, city-fighting, dangerous stuff. The Russians used AA AFVs in Groszny. The Isreali's AFV of choice a few weeks ago was a bulldozer to flatten the building (besides also using AA fire on the buildings). So, even in real world, noone can just go in with tanks under an infantry screen.

Some thoughts:

The AA stuff works pretty well in CMBO, but it is too effective in bringing the building down, which may not be what you want. However, I found the low-blast AA guns and generally small guns up to 50mm to be very useful in shooting by the infantry. The low blast doesn't hurt your own troops, and they are quite precise.

Don't forget Flakpanzer, armored cars, anything with 20mm autogun or 37/40/50mm armored cars. The 20mm towoed flak is mobile enough to be useful.

If you think the enemy doesn't have mines, driving a bunch of tanks right through the defenses, through some narrow road, at top speed, will usually work. The pavement or at least roads will ensure that you have high speed, so even vanilla Shermans will be fast.

Fast turrets rule. In general, but in special in cities.

In CMBO, AP shots are pretty dangerous to troops in buildings.

[Cortes]

Fionn, xerxes and redwolf- thanks so much. Fionn expecially, I appreciate the advice and I am eager to try it out.

Muchos gracias.

[Fionn]

My pleasure.

[xerxes]

Fionn make a very good point, I've played many good players and though some tactics are common, each of them has a very different style. Fionn's style sounds totally different from mine. My attack style relies on pinning and attempting to deny a defender the ability to move. Then I concentrate fire selectively and gradually roll up the MLR. I also play mainly scenarios as allies and often I'm light on infantry and heavy on afvs and arty. The allied infantry is often too weak and too few to do the heavy lifting and needs support.

I'd be interested in hearing your defensive city strategy Fionn.

-marc s

[ May 09, 2002, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: xerxes ]

[Fionn]

Well Marc, to be honest with you I don't have a huge amount of experience defending in cities because I feel it just wouldn't be fair to my opponents to stack the game against them that way so bear that in mind when reading what I write...

1. Very minor outpost line just in front of the city or in the outmost buildings. This line is set up so as to kill the enemy recon units, force the enemy to deploy for a deliberate attack ( thus slowing and concentrating them) and also to force the enemy to waste arty and tank HE on a 300 metre section of city frontage which might be occupied by only 1 platoon and a couple of FOs.

2. When the enemy bunches up in forming up areas for a deliberate attack I hit them with arty. When they bring tanks up to pound buildings I note their locations and manoeuvre my own tanks into positions from which to kill them etc etc.

When the attack finally does come I bug out of the forward areas.

3. I don't bug out too quickly though and I try to entice the enemy to chase after me. If they do I lead them into multiple ambushes with each retreating squad.

4. Once you've got your kills in the forming up zone and your ambush kills city-fights usually settle down into slogging matches in which the defender has the advantage since he can keep roads etc under observation and fire and really prevent the enemy shifting forces around much. I try to keep a nice, sizeable reserve and constantly seek to counter-attack/attack the attacker. Nothing stops an attack quite so well as over-running an entire enemy company and collapsing an entire flank in 2 to 3 turns ( in my experience anyways).

NATO doctrine is to not hold the first line of buildings and only defend deeper in ( preferably with the first row of buildings TRPed and mined). I've had this used against me by a Canadian Major once and it was very effective. I do, however, think that letting the enemy into the first row of buildings without any major losses is a mistake.

In the game I mentioned above my solution was simply to go around the village, dislocate the entire enemy front and make his strong defence of the village a trap ( since they're pretty much encircled).

Really a city fight requires you to have a good eye ( coup d'oeuil ) for positions and ambushes, a VERY good feeling for when your troops and the enemy's are about to reach their breaking point and the tenacity to charge forward when the slightest opportunity presents itself ( whether defender or attacker).

Of course as anyone who plays me will tell you I play a very fluid game so all of the above has to be interpreted with that in mind.

[Fionn]

Just had a thought to illustrate my overall viewpoint re: cityfighting...

This is a question aked by Drizzt to which virtually no-one ever gives the right answer...

"What's the easiest ( in terms of losses, expenditure of materials etc) way to capture a particular locale?

Answer: Convince the enemy its a place he no longer needs to be / should be."

Convince the enemy that the decision will be reached elsewhere and he will rob the garrison of a town of men to bolster that segment of front. Then when you attack, it falls quickly. Alternately, dislocate the enemy by cutting off their supply lines and giving them the choice between all dieing in the town or retreating from it and living. When the enemy chooses to retreat you just march in and take it. Assuming you lose very few guys in the drive around the flanks of the town ( usually a good assumption) you might be able to force a Bn out of a town at the cost of a couple of platoons.

Once they are moving about outside of the town you can simply let them run into pre-prepared ambushes or, even more simply, drive over them with tanks, HTs and suchlike. The sort of slaughter which ensues when a short Bn gets ridden over by tanks and HTs has to be seen to be believed.

[Kingfish]

I find the most effective urban warfare tactic is to nuke the site from orbit. Quick, concise and to the point.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Fionn:

NATO doctrine is to not hold the first line of buildings and only defend deeper in ( preferably with the first row of buildings TRPed and mined). I've had this used against me by a Canadian Major once and it was very effective. I do, however, think that letting the enemy into the first row of buildings without any major losses is a mistake.

I agree...unless you have large arty calibers (in excess of 105mm) its too hard to attrit the attacking infantry once they reach the safety of buildings...the arty's punch gets wasted. I'd rather have the TRPs deeper into the enemies approach routes where the cover isn't as good, and also the enemy will hopefully get caught on the move, esp. the fragile support units (mortars, MGs, FOs, etc.).

[Redwolf]

It is too bad that we can't have a four-player CMBO game with a big city in the middle of a map and Fionn's infantry hordes, my high-precision small-gun fire, xerxes isolationalists and Kingfish's blasters attack from four sides, with Wreck or so defening all sides.

In any case, be sure to understand CMBO's rules of when and how you can switch from one building to another before you go to a cityfight.

[Walker]

Originally posted by redwolf:

In any case, be sure to understand CMBO's rules of when and how you can switch from one building to another before you go to a cityfight.

Rules of when and how? Please elaborate!

[xerxes]

That would make it a LastManOnTheHill game redwolf. The strategy for that is to let your fellow attackers do the work. Stay strong enough so they won't attack you. Meybe threaten one attacker to push him into another. Then move in for the kill in the final seconds.

A fun game, but one in which strategy, personality, and bluffing are far more important than tactics.

[Fionn]

Walker what he means is that sometimes people forget that you can't mousehole ( move between partition walls) and, when two buildings are joined, you have to go out into the street to get into the next-door building.

[xerxes]

Avoiding a pitched cityfight is certainly the best option. I always like it when I know where my enemy is. It's the ones you dont' see that can really hurt you.

[Redwolf]

Yeah, I meant the rule like you have to go out on the street to switch from one large building to another.

But I also mean that the exact distance to the wall are non-intuitive, I repeadently had squads rerite movements paths on their own because I plotted too near the walls. Needless to say, they joined the party late and I arrived piecemeal.

Also worth nothing is constant LOS available between diagonally adjacent/touching large buildings. Nice surprises for AFV fighting here.

[Walker]

Fionn, thanks for the explanation. I'm afraid I have another question that reveals my ignorance iro military acronyms: what is an OODA loop? I've been trying to find a satisfactory solution to the puzzle ever since I read your post - and that was quite a while ago. In other words, I give up - what is an OODA loop??

[Walker]

Wait wait I think I've got it:

On/Off-Defence/Attack

?

[Patgod]

Observe, Orient, Decide, Act

[Walker]

Ah yes thank you Patgod. I should have checked with Google first. I just did, and got 4,200 results. A very complex issue. Mind-boggling in fact. I'm way out of my depth here so I think I'll go back to my little PBEM game and deal with equally intricate issues, such as whether or not my flamethrower will set his own building on fire if he attempts to torch the clump of trees over there from inside the house... Thanks again.

[Fionn]

Walker,

If you want fewer hits look it up as the "Boyd loop". This will probably limit hits to the American officer who brought the concept to wider attention and should generate much more "readable" answers.

The basic take home message which gets lost when people give overly complicated answers is that the OODA loop basically holds that:

1. to have an effective reaction to an enemy action you have to OBSERVE that action, ORIENT on it ( focus some intelligence-gathering assets onto it in order to gain more info OR just focus your mind on it and consider the ramifications of the enemy action), DECIDE what to do about it and then ACT on your decision.

So, to put it into CM terms...

I you see some vehicles heading for your left flank you've fulfilled the OBSERVE portion.

NOW you want to gather more intel so you would re-orient your sniper/observation teams on your left flank so as to get more eyeballs on the likely enemy route of advance. That's the ORIENT phase done.

Now that you have more eyeballs on the vehicles you can make out what type they are ( e.g. nothing but tanks, tanks mixed in with infantry carriers etc) and begin to assess their likely course of action and what you need to begin doing to counter those possible actions. That is the DECIDE phase done.

Lastly, once you've decided what you need to do to negate this threat you MAKE IT HAPPEN... E.g. shift some ATGs to cover the left flank. That is the ACT part of the loop.

In warfare history has shown that if one side can carry out manoeuvres more quickly than the enemy can observe, orient, decide and act then it is likely those manoeuvres will be succesful. E.g. If you see the tanks moving up but they move up so quickly that you can't shift ATGs to protect your flank then one can say that the enemy has gotten inside your OODA loop.

In real war the side which can operate within the enemy's OODA loop ( IOW the side which can create action more quickly than its opponent) generally has the initiative.

Advanced OODA concepts:

Sometimes you don't need to beat the whole OODA loop. CM example: If you can keep those tanks hidden right up until they are within 200 metres of the section of the enemy line they want to break through the enemy simply won't have the time to do any fancy observation and physical or mental asset re-orientation and will simply have to decide and act. The decision will be made under extreme time pressure ( and is thus likely to be poor) while they may not be able to ACT decisively because your tanks are so close to the front that no ATGs can displace in time.

So, if you can't yet fully grasp the whole complexity of the OODA loop ( and it is a hellaciously complicated thing to grasp) you should still be able to concentrate on trying to ensure the enemy only has limited time or info for various parts of it. The shorter the time of any given loop segment ( be it the observation, orientation, decision-making, or action segments) and the less info the opponent has during each loop segment the more likely it is that their observation, orientation, decisions and actions will be sub-optimal.

As I said it is pretty complicated but if you can grasp what I said above you'll know more than most. FWIW I'm a big believer in getting inside the OODA loop and actively go out of my way with maskirovka operations and operational tempo to limit enemy segment times and segment information. I find it an extremely important part of any CM battle. Not said to boast but said to underline the importance of the OODA loop in my eyes.

Honestly though if you can grasp the above you've got most of what you need. I'll answer any questions anyone has about it if they post here.

Oh and in case anyone feels dumb asking these questions etc... Remember there was a time when the people who can NOW answer your questions didn't know the answers themselves and they had to ask others to explain these exact same things to them.

[Cortes]

Let us, however, not forget Zhukov's defense of Leningrad- a perfect example that quanity, in defense, may overrun quality. Essentially, Zhukov mobilized civilians, men women children, to dig defenses and help man them. The more lead in the air often can remove those pesky expert squads of infantry.

Maybe I should've saved that bit for CMBB.

[Cortes]

Also, what's Peng mean?

Yes. I am a noob. All it looks like to me is a nonsense post.