88mm anti-tank guns on Eastern front?

[energy76]

I've benn wondering, how common were 88mm anti-tank guns on the Eastern front? I know Rommel had a bunch in Africa, but I haven't read much about the Eastern front and would be interested in knowing...

[KNac]

Do you mean Flak36 or the Pak gun? 88mm Paks where very few along the war. But Flak guns (which had dual poupose) where very abundant, and in Eastern front too.

[jgdpzr]

First off, there are multiple types of 88, and the different types had different rates of frequency. The most common was the 88 flak gun (there were actually a couple of different models of these as well, IIRC). This was a medium flak gun designed to shoot at high-altitude bombers. At the battle of Arras (I think that was the one) during the blitzkrieg of France, the value of it in the anti-tank role was discovered as Rommel (once again I think) used a line of them to backstop his armor being overrun by thicker-skinned Matildas. They succeeded where no other German gun could, and their legend in the AT role was born.

They were used similarly in North Africa. Then, in Russia, it was discovered that there too the guns were often the only thing available that could defeat the armor of the heavier enemy tanks (especially the KV series). Understandably, they were then assigned to field units to act as heavy anti-tank assets. I am not sure of the ratio of distribution, but I would hazard that a large percentage were detailed for this work, rather than setup in AA batteries. In the early war, I am sure this distribution was also influenced by the fact that the Germans had yet to have a tremendously pressing need for strategic AA defenses by this point of the war.

Flak mounted 88's as ATGs continued throughout the war as dictated by the circumstances at hand, although in the later years dedicated ATG 88s (L71) were developed and fielded. However, I am sure the numbers of the latter never came close to the flak mounted 88s.

Long-story-short, the flak-variety were fairly common on almost all fronts on which the Germans fought.

[ October 22, 2002, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: jgdpzr ]

[Nick Hyle]

Originally posted by jgdpzr:

. At the battle of Arras (I think that was the one) during the blitzkrieg of France, the value of it in the anti-tank role was discovered as Rommel (once again I think) used a line of them to backstop his armor being overrun by thicker-skinned Matildas. They succeeded where no other German gun could, and their legend in the AT role was born.

Everyone talks about Arras and Rommel (and your account is dead on), but the 88's death-ray ability as an AT-gun was actually discovered earlier by the German "volunteer" Condor Legion in the Spanish Civil War.

That's why the 88's in France '40 were packing AP ammo in the caissons.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by Nick Hyle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jgdpzr:

. At the battle of Arras (I think that was the one) during the blitzkrieg of France, the value of it in the anti-tank role was discovered as Rommel (once again I think) used a line of them to backstop his armor being overrun by thicker-skinned Matildas. They succeeded where no other German gun could, and their legend in the AT role was born.

Everyone talks about Arras and Rommel (and your account is dead on), but the 88's death-ray ability as an AT-gun was actually discovered earlier by the German "volunteer" Condor Legion in the Spanish Civil War.

That's why the 88's in France '40 were packing AP ammo in the caissons. </font>

[jgdpzr]

Originally posted by Nick Hyle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jgdpzr:

. At the battle of Arras (I think that was the one) during the blitzkrieg of France, the value of it in the anti-tank role was discovered as Rommel (once again I think) used a line of them to backstop his armor being overrun by thicker-skinned Matildas. They succeeded where no other German gun could, and their legend in the AT role was born.

Everyone talks about Arras and Rommel (and your account is dead on), but the 88's death-ray ability as an AT-gun was actually discovered earlier by the German "volunteer" Condor Legion in the Spanish Civil War.

That's why the 88's in France '40 were packing AP ammo in the caissons. </font>

[ParaBellum]

In a book about Field Marshall Milch, the man who built the Luftwaffe I found something interesting.

After the allied tank attack at Cambrai in WWI 1917 when he inspected the battlefield he mentioned that most tanks were killed by 7.5cm Flak mounted on lorries.

When he came to power in the new Luftwaffe as early as 1935 he introduced anti-tank gunnery in Luftwaffe Flak units as an important task.

[ October 22, 2002, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[EightInchArty]

Read somewhere that there also was an artillery piece in 88mm and it was used by both artillery units and Krigsmarine in their U-Boats. Haven't seen the piece having any game use anywhere. Rare item or my bad memory?

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by jgdpzr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nick Hyle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jgdpzr:

. At the battle of Arras (I think that was the one) during the blitzkrieg of France, the value of it in the anti-tank role was discovered as Rommel (once again I think) used a line of them to backstop his armor being overrun by thicker-skinned Matildas. They succeeded where no other German gun could, and their legend in the AT role was born.

Everyone talks about Arras and Rommel (and your account is dead on), but the 88's death-ray ability as an AT-gun was actually discovered earlier by the German "volunteer" Condor Legion in the Spanish Civil War.

That's why the 88's in France '40 were packing AP ammo in the caissons. </font>

[SaTyR]

Btw. and a bit (actually a lot) OT: the net is full of pictures of tanks "ambushed by artillery". Heavy artillery pieces killing Tigers and such. Huge parts of their armor ripped of, gigantic holes in the sides. Whole convoys destroyed. IIRC such pictures can be seen at http://www.battlefield.ru/index.html . Can this be done in CMXX ? Anyone had a "heavy" or a "medium" tank killed by off-board artillery ? I don't know how common it was to destroy tanks in such a manner, but pictures (and the quantity of the pictures) seems to suggest that it could be and was done. Thoughts ?

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by EightInchArty:

Read somewhere that there also was an artillery piece in 88mm and it was used by both artillery units and Krigsmarine in their U-Boats....

A naval version of the 88mm was mounted on ships for AA duty and on U-boats for anti-ship duty. Same caliber, but slightly different gun with differing mounts and designation- I believe the latest Osprey book on the 88mm has a section on the naval usage of the gun. And, at least by World War II, there was not a German artillery piece in the calibre of 88mm (of course, I won't begin discussion of the British 88mm aka 25pdr... ).

[ October 22, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Zitadelle ]

[Bastables]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

In a book about Field Marshall Milch, the man who built the Luftwaffe I found something interesting.

After the allied tank attack at Cambrai in WWI 1917 when he inspected the battlefield he mentioned that most tanks were killed by 7.5cm Flak mounted on lorries.

When he came to power in the new Luftwaffe as early as 1935 he introduced anti-tank gunnery in Luftwaffe Flak units as an important task.

Eh? I thought that Flak units during WWI became so good at knocking out tanks that orders were passed down to "remind" the Flak gunners that their main target was in fact aircraft. Len Deighton has figures that show the last weeks of WWI were fought without tanks due to breakdowns and German gunners. The initial models for what became the StuG were nothing more than purpose built trucks/halftracks with guns on them.

Sorry ment WWI not WWII

[ October 22, 2002, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Bastables:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ParaBellum:

In a book about Field Marshall Milch, the man who built the Luftwaffe I found something interesting.

After the allied tank attack at Cambrai in WWI 1917 when he inspected the battlefield he mentioned that most tanks were killed by 7.5cm Flak mounted on lorries.

When he came to power in the new Luftwaffe as early as 1935 he introduced anti-tank gunnery in Luftwaffe Flak units as an important task.

Eh? I thought that Flak units during WWII became so good at knocking out tanks that orders were passed down to "remind" the Flak gunners that their main target was in fact aircraft. Len Deighton has figures that show the last weeks of WWI were fought without tanks due to breakdowns and German gunners. The initial models for what became the StuG were nothing more than purpose built trucks/halftracks with guns on them.</font>

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by jgdpzr:

On a slightly different note, how many thick skinned tanks did the Republicans have that stumped the Condor Legion's other AT assets?

when you have no AT assets all tanks are thick skinned!!

the Republicans had T26's armed with 45mm cannon in Spain, and trhey weer hell on wheels ..er...tracks...compared to the Pz 1's that the Germans ...er.....other side had.

The 88 didn't NEED AP ammo to KO them, but someone thought that tanks might get heavier armour and that a couple of AP rounds per gun might be useful!

[Bastables]

Originally posted by SaTyR:

Btw. and a bit (actually a lot) OT: the net is full of pictures of tanks "ambushed by artillery". Heavy artillery pieces killing Tigers and such. Huge parts of their armor ripped of, gigantic holes in the sides. Whole convoys destroyed. IIRC such pictures can be seen at http://www.battlefield.ru/index.html . Can this be done in CMXX ? Anyone had a "heavy" or a "medium" tank killed by off-board artillery ? I don't know how common it was to destroy tanks in such a manner, but pictures (and the quantity of the pictures) seems to suggest that it could be and was done. Thoughts ?

Ambushed by arty= Anti tank guns and Field pieces in the direct fire role, shooting at tank sides. Notice how there are no top penetrations.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

A naval version of the 88mm was mounted on ships for AA duty and on U-boats for anti-ship duty. Same caliber, but slightly different gun with differing mounts and designation- I believe the latest Osprey book on the 88mm has a section on the naval usage of the gun.

I think you are correct in indicating that the naval version was derived from the FlaK gun, but I recall that there was one or more types of naval guns in that caliber from the last quarter of the ninetenth century through the end of WW I, IIRC.

Michael

[Bastables]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bastables:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ParaBellum:

In a book about Field Marshall Milch, the man who built the Luftwaffe I found something interesting.

After the allied tank attack at Cambrai in WWI 1917 when he inspected the battlefield he mentioned that most tanks were killed by 7.5cm Flak mounted on lorries.

When he came to power in the new Luftwaffe as early as 1935 he introduced anti-tank gunnery in Luftwaffe Flak units as an important task.

Eh? I thought that Flak units during WWII became so good at knocking out tanks that orders were passed down to "remind" the Flak gunners that their main target was in fact aircraft. Len Deighton has figures that show the last weeks of WWI were fought without tanks due to breakdowns and German gunners. The initial models for what became the StuG were nothing more than purpose built trucks/halftracks with guns on them.</font>

[Rob Murray]

From what I've read Luftwaffe 88 crews were pretty effective on the eastern front. A number of gun commanders won the RK ( Ritterkreuz ). Previous to '42 gun crews were awarded the Luftwaffe Flak War badge but because they became so successful they became eligible for the Ground Combat Badge. This info comes from Uniforms & Insignia of the Luftwaffe Vol. 2 1940 - 1945 by Brian L. Davis.