ok gents - attacking hetzers and jadgpanzers ?

[Juardis]

I'm playing against someone who absolutely loves these things. He parks them in great overwatch positions and pounds me mercilessly. I want to teach this bastahd a lesson. However, I have nothing but M4A1s. I can try racing in between some of his tanks, but it would be open country and open season on Shermans. Not a pleasant prospect. I've tried dumping 60mm mortar on his hetzers. No good. I cannot penetrate the tops (according to this forum I am supposed to be able to, but no joy with 3 60mm teams). I've knocked out 2 hetzers with 4.2in mortars. But my arty is running out. I have glider squads and zooks. I cannot get close enough to kill with them and they are getting pummelled. This guy absolutely loves armor and I suck at using it. So I'm at a huge disadvantage right there.

Now, I'm not asking for my current game but for a future game. How would you counter this? I'm thinking lots and lots of M10s, Stuarts, and Greyhounds and 81mm FOs and mortar teams. Use smoke, race in close on the flanks, then pummel the ****e out of him. (leave the m10s in standoff though). Forget infantry almost if he's going exclusively tank hunters and armored cars.

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Jeff Abbott

[Manx]

I would certainly do as you suggested late on in your post - Drop a couple of rounds of mortar fire to try and get them buttoned-up. Use lots and lots of smoke from mortar teams and try and get your most nimble armoured assets in around their flanks in a two-pronged assault (they can't fire in two directions at once). Even if one spearhead takes heavy losses you should be able to get the other one in close. Remember though that he will probably have these units overwatched by schrecks, ATG's and infantry.

However you do it, you don't stand much of a chance unless you can get in amongst them and engage at close-quarters, preferably attacking their flank or rear.

Shameless Plug - Take a look at the Hetzer Tactics page on COMBAT MISSIONS. Your not the only one who's suffered at the hands of a well-positioned, HD Hetzer.

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COMBAT MISSIONS - CM News, Supplies & Resources

WWW.COMBATMISSIONS.CO.UK

[This message has been edited by Manx (edited 01-11-2001).]

[Pak40]

Good tactics to defeat the Hetzer will depend on the situation and the layout of the map. But a general tactic would be to use 81mm offboard smoke to blind the Hetzer and any other enemy units. Be liberal with the smoke - don't worry about losing HE artillery rounds. The purpose of the smoke is to get your tanks and infanrty into better position without taking fire and hopefully he wont even see most of your units move. If the Hetzer moves forward to get clear of the smoke, then he will be more vulnerable and you should probably start your attack right away, otherwise read the following.

Start your assault after the smoke clears. Rush 3 tanks towards the Hetzer, two of them on flanking runs and the other straight at the Hetzer. You may substitute an M8 for one of the tanks but he will have to get behind the Hetzer to take him out. If possible, rush infantry with the tanks (or embarked) so that enemy infantry(panzerfausts) and Panzershreks can be engaged. Hellcats will make the best rushers because of their speed but the open top will leave them vulnerable when close to enemy infantry. Keep all of your armored units on the move constantly. With the gyrostabalizer they are good enough shots when on the move and they are harder to hit because they are moving. Be prepared to lose 2/3 of your armor.

Keep in mind that even 75mm guns have a good chance of killing a Hetzer from the side. Also, if the Hetzer is not hull down then the front lower hull can be penetrated by a 75mm.

If you have on board 81mm mortars, then they stand a good chance of immobilizing the Hetzer. I have yet to kill one with mortars, but it may be possible because of the weak top armor.

Another option is to keep using smoke every 4 or 5 turns to blind the Hetzer, basically blinding him for half of the game. While he is blind, get your tanks into better positions to engage infantry and other targets. Let the Hetzer live, so long as he doesn't try to break free of the smoke screen. You'll need all the rounds of at least one off board 81mm to do this, maybe two.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Hetzer engaging your infanty. They carry few HE shells and only one mg.

[Juardis]

When you say rush, do you mean Fast move? Will allied tanks fire while fast moving? I've never tried that before nor seen it down.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

By "great overwatch positions" I assume you mean positions that can see lots of area. That is using the front armor of his beasties, and trying to deny you room to deploy. The problem with it, is that a position that can see lots of the field, can be seen from lots of the field (duh), and that lets you pick the spot to engage him from. In addition, such position disclose to you where he is pretty fast. And it should not be too hard to draw his fire (heh heh).

So, how you you exploit all of that? First, by not trying to do the same thing yourself. If you put your tanks in places that can see lots of ground, he will see them and torch them, and your fire back will bounce off his front more often than not.

Instead, you want to put your tanks in places where they see only a small part of the enemy position. "Keyhole sighting" it is called. Peeking out from behind a body of woods or a building, you can find spots that only see 150 meters length of one ridge, and are masked by terrain from the rest of his position.

Use your infantry to find good spots. They go somewhere and see what they can see, then they can get into the cover you are going to hide behind. They see things for the tanks, which can stay in dead ground until ready instead of nosing forward themselves and getting bushwhacked.

Then pick one of his TDs, and distract it. Give it a half squad to look at, or half two tanks move into different, seperated firing positions at once. You want a flank shot, obviously - even at range you can kill him with a flank shot. To get one, you have to make him turn to face something else.

Use smoke to mask other TDs *while* you are tackling one of them. Say one of those two seperated tank "keyhole" positions can also be seen by a second TD or his. Then blanket that one in smoke just before springing the two-on-one on the other one.

See the idea? If you know where his guys are, it is not so hard to seperate off one vehicle at a time and overload it with more enemies, from more angles, than it can handle or present its front armor towards at once. You don't have to cavalry charge to do this, though sometimes you will want to race somebody forward to a closer keyhole piece of cover to get a better angle or whatever.

Also, do not discount your infantry. If the ground is wide open, then sure they will not be able to close with his TDs in overwatch positions, but if the terrain isn't that clear then they should be able to get closer. Be patient. Stay back inside woods or behind buildings between rushes forward, instead of at the forward edges of them, to avoid being pounded by his HE all day. Sneak a small unit to the edge to keep an eye on things, but do not fire with it (use the hide command, or send a low range HQ or half-squad).

When you pick off a TD or two, look for the areas that are no longer covered because those guns were the only ones that could see some patch of ground, and ruch through that area before he brings another TD over. Get behind keyhole cover again with your tanks, and move the infantry closer.

What you want to have happen, is to force him to crawl around looking for you or for angles that can shoot at you, while also getting your infantry teams closer and closer to him. He is not nearly so formidable when moving around, because he has to show sides to move much, to somebody somewhere, and he can't turn on a new threat nearly as fast as you can.

If he has *no* infantry helping him, your infantry should give you so big a spotting edge that you should be able to keep your tanks reasonably safe while stalking his to get 2-1, 2 angle situations. And after a few of those, to walk your guys close enough to him to force him to leave ridges or get zooked.

If he does have some covering infantry, then use your mortars and offboard arty on them, after you find them. Use mortars for smoke, too. But it is a waste of the ammo trying toi wipe out all his TDs with off board arty, especially the lighter stuff. Anything under 105mm, if isn't worth firing HE missions at him.

As for your force mix, obviously you want Shermans or M-10s for the main armor dueling, setting up these 2-1s and keyhole shots. Some M-8s or Stuarts for closer rushes are a fine idea too (flank on Hetzers that is). As is offboard arty, an 81mm or two for smoke and infantry shooting, maybe one heavier module to try to actually kill things. But get some infantry too for the sighting and bazooka work up close, and not green guys obviously. Don't bother with halftracks, they are shell bait against this kind of enemy.

The enemy's main weakness should be differential spotting and intel from his manner of fighting, "overwatch" or out in sight using his front armor to dominant areas. That broadcasts where he is. Don't tell him where you are, and use the infantry to keep his positions spotted. Then you hunt, with the "keyhole and distraction" idea, and the "double team at angles" idea, and the "blind the others" idea.

It is all about teamwork and patience and traps, not about the thickness of front armor plates, nor a suicidal charge of the light brigade.

[Tiny]

I must admit to never having a problem with the 'little buggers'.

I like playing Brits (being one myself) and find that hollowcharge rounds from my Churchill VIII deal with them easily, hull down or not, other that that out flank and run rings round them.

[Henri]

First of all you should know this: any wide-open map without some cover, give equal points, favors the German player because of the better optics of German tanks; so if you opponent always insists on this kind of map, he is really asking for an advantage.

IMHO, the counter to his strategy is to get a bigger killer than him: a Jumbo shou ld do it, the Hetzer's shells should bounce off the front armor of the Jumbo, although the Jumbo's shells may do the same...A super Pershing should also do a job on the Hetzer, the problem being that for the same cost, he can get a number of Hetzers.

Another way (possibly combined with the above) is to get a whole bunch of M8s, whose gun can kill the Hetzer from the side or rear, and to flank the bastard from both sides. If the Hetzer is immobilized it will be useless and easily killed, and it has no turret so it has to rotate to shoot at the flank, exposing its side to enemy tanks. When it starts to rotate, you can uncover anotehr tanks in the front to knock off the Hetzer.

The M8 moves so fast that it is practically impossible to hit while moving, has a high rate of fire and it packs a good punch.In a recent game, in 2 minutes my opponent knocked off two of my tanks, 2 Wespes and a Hummel with a single M8 rampaging behind my lines.The Hellcat is a bit more expensive, but is is also very fast and packs a bigger punch.

But the best advice still is: if you opponent insists on playing the GErmans on biliard-pool-table maps, insist on having a lot more points to even things out.

To find out what you need, play both sides on a map like this to try out vrious tactics suggested above and in other posts. Then b eat the crap out of your opponent and kick him while he is down...

If nothing else works, insist on taking the GErmans yourself half the time and either give him a taste of his own medicine or watch how he does it to beat his own game...

Henri

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juardis:

When you say rush, do you mean Fast move? Will allied tanks fire while fast moving? I've never tried that before nor seen it down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I did a test scenario some time ago. Large flat dry grass all over. A single stationary Tiger vs 5 average type and quality Shermans.

The Shermans started in a spread line formation about 2500m in front of the Tiger and 500m apart from each other, and then closed in at full speed with the flank Shermans trying to outflank the Tiger.

I was very annoyed to find even the flanking Shermans firing AP while moving at full speed perpendicular to the Tiger more than a mile away. I was even more annoyed to find them actually hit the target, not once but several times (about 20% hits). Real life hit percentage in this situation would have been on the lower side of 1%...

I'm not sure if this has been corrected in later versions of CM though.

Cheers

Olle

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Srategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight...

[I/O Error]

I'm not too sure about your assertion that the hit percentage would have been extraordinarily low...

In the game, the gyrostablizer is modeled with most version of the Sherman, and historically that is one thing the US has been VERY good at.

The gyrostabilizer is perhaps one of the ONLY true advantages besides numbers that US armored forces had against the Germans, and as far as I can tell from my readings, it was a VERY good advantage to possess.

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Honor, Duty, Courage.

Valhalla awaits you, honorable warrior...

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"If you find yourself alone, riding through green fields with the sun on your face, do not be troubled, for you are in Elysium, and YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD!"

[coralsaw]

I/O error or anybody else,

I would appreciate some pointers and pictures about the gyro.

Regards

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My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli...

[Olle Petersson]

All references I've seen on the subject of firing while moving says it's pretty much a no-no, gyro or not. The gyro speeds up aiming once you stop to shoot though. Only tanks with stabilisers developed around 1980 or later have a decent chance to hit a point target while moving.

There was an interview with an American WW2 tanker published here some months ago, I couldn't find it with 15 minutes search though , he said that they might consider firing HE against massed infantry while moving, but AP was out of the question. This subject has also been discussed in several other threads...

I'll see if I can find that interview later...

Cheers

Olle

[Juardis]

My impression is and was the same as Olle's. Firing while moving with WWII era tanks is almost as useless as targetting an area with arty while out of LOS - in other words, next to useless.

Thanks for the description on keyholing. I always went for hull down positions that could see as much of the land as possible. Perhaps that is why my tanks are smoldering wrecks now eh?

Henri, I always enjoy reading your posts on c.s.i.p.g.war-historical. I don't post much there as that seems a higher pedigree of poster. Anyway, we're playing Fionn's Rule of 76, so no Jumbos . It was my fault for not buying an M18 or 6, but I went historical while my opponent went hysterical. So I have M4A1 75mm, 105, and a few 76mm tanks. My plan was to use the 76's as my tank hunters. He has the hetzers, jagdpanzers, Panthers - and lots of them.

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Jeff Abbott

[Monte99]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juardis:

He has the hetzers, jagdpanzers, Panthers - and lots of them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm. An opponent who insists on a wide-open map and the best long-range killers in the game does not seem like someone who cares for much of a challenge. But if HE can afford the best, YOU should be able to afford the means to counter him. Smoke, and still more smoke! A few fast vehicles to keep him pivoting during his few moments of visibility. And 'zooks up the wazoo.

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"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."

-Bertrand Russell

[Beer_n_Pretzels]

Firstly, don't fight his tanks with your tanks. German tanks are technically superior and you will get creamed. use artillery AT guns, Fighter-bombers, infantry, smoke etc.

Secondly, if your opponent insists for the next game to be the Germans AND play on a map with little or no cover, I suggest you find somebody else.

Thirdly use mortars to smoke his Hetzers out. If they can't see, then they can't shoot If he moves his Hetzers out then peg him

Fourthly, use heavy artillery (ie. 4.5" or above) or Fighter-Bombers to immbolise/kill his Hetzers. An Immobilised Hetzer is a dead one.

Fifthly, If you're opponent is such a wizard with Tanks, insist that he plays the allies on a map with bugger all cover...

[JoePrivate]

I just finished playing three 1.1 armour battles, minimal support from artillery and infantry, with the US as a fun exercise. Your game with M4A1s sounds *significantly* harder.

The results were Axis Major, Axis Minor and Allied Major. I used mostly Hellcats and M476s, no Jumbos or Pershings and the like. Conversely to what was stated above, I had the most success when the map was open. I think because when the map was restricted I was forced to engage on a limited axis, this 'keyholing' actually favored the Germans because of their advantage in survivabilty and high velocity weapons. Optics aren't modelled in CM so there is no advantage either way. Some observations, 76 HVAP can knockout HD Panthers, Hetzers and JgPzs from the front. Panthers are effectively as fast as Shermans so can easily counter your moves. Flanking to envelop positions is an excellent idea but the enemy isn't blind to that either. In the later half of one game I thought I had broken through so committed my reserve of 3 Hellcats to roll up his flank. I soon discovered 2 previously unknown Hetzers who turned a moment of brilliance into 3 hulking wrecks. Armour acting alone and especially when moving fast has a very hard time spotting anything. In the example above, I never identified the Hetzers until the third Hellcat was destroyed, even after several shots had been fired. At least the crewmen knew what got them in the end While firing on the move may not have been WWII SOP, in CM tanks will fire and do score hits.

It would be much easier IMO with a combined arms force. Then you could use arty, smoke, and infantry to secure the flank and envelop, forcing the panzers to displace or be flanked in turn and engaged by your bazookas/tanks. The 'trick' is to engage from two sides simultaneously. One thing CM hammers home is the most effective force is the combined arms one.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monte99:

Hmmm. An opponent who insists on a wide-open map and the best long-range killers in the game does not seem like someone who cares for much of a challenge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, he's just a good strategist...

(See my signature below.)

Anyway, I'm more in favour of playing battles where victory is based on what the player manage to do with available resources instead of the absolute outcome of the battle.

One of my favourite scenarios for another game is where the lead elements of DAK runs over parts of the 3rd Indian motor brigade.

The map is flat desert, in CM terms it's a meeting engagement with at least 3:1 force relationship (and a lot more DAK units held back in reserve). The Indians hadn't even had time to unlimber their guns before the battle.

The outcome is clear, the Indians will be wiped out. The question is how long it takes and at what losses for DAK. (DAK is marching up to attack the Gazala line, and will lose the element of surprise if this battle isn't won quickly, and risk lose the upcoming main battle if they take to heavy losses in this pre-match.

Historically the Indians managed to delay DAK for about an hour, which proved to be sufficient. DAK also lost about 50 tanks, mostly from Ariete division, which didn't help them later on either.

(Oh, I'm almost finished with a bathtubbed and slightly misplaced version of this battle as a CM scenario.)

Cheers

Olle

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Srategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight...

[109 Gustav]

I would recommend M18 hellcats instead of M10s, due to their faster turrets and faster speed. Sure, their armor is a lot weaker, but unless your opponent gets a lot of flak or armored cars, they are much better for flanking your opponents than the M10.

One or two regular sharpshooters can be worth their weight in gold by buttoning up tanks. When you engage buttoned tanks from the flank, you will always get the first shot, and sometimes you'll get two shots before he notices.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Guest Mikey D]

I'd say smoke, smoke, and more smoke. Keep him blind. Force him to expose himself changing position.

Purchase snipers. If he's buttoned-up he'll be practically blind to bazooka hunter/killer teams. And if your sniper's lucky enough to nail a commander that'll cut the vehicle's effectiveness by 2/3rds.

[Trooper]

A little large HE never goes amiss... 155mms, 7.2" or whatever.. He'll either become immobilised (Easy target), gun hit (cool), or decide to move. Once he moves off from his great overwatch position, leg it to a place where you'll do well!

NTM

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The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle!

[Guest Mikey D]

That's an idea!

He purchases antitank vehicles, you purchase two snipers and as much heavy artillery as you can afford! By the last move they can just walk to the victory flags over the bodies of their enemies.

[Instincti]

I just took out a JagPanther with a flank hit from a 40mm bofors AA gun from 300m

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Instincti:

I just took out a JagPanther with a flank hit from a 40mm bofors AA gun from 300m

It has been my experience that the JadgPanther is inferior to the JadgPanzer. The JadgPanther seems to die way too easily (which you proved again). The JadgPanzer seems much harder to kill. Not sure if it's because of the angles or what.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by I/O Error:

In the game, the gyrostablizer is modeled with most version of the Sherman, and historically that is one thing the US has been VERY good at.

But gyro-stablisers were normally turned off by crews - accurate firing was only possible from the halt.

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"He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..."

- Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent