deadeye3 Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 I have been curious as to the randomness of fighter bombers in a game if more than one was purchased. 1) when do they show up 2) what would they target 3) would they all target the same thing I set up a 30 turn hot seat game that I played out myself. I went about 22 turns before being interrutped and needing to quit. Both sides had fighter-bombers, allies x2 and axis x1. Not once did I see or hear a plane. Nor did I see damage left by a plane I might have missed. Why do you suppose this is? Thx >8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Dreaman Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 There is a chance that Fighter Bombers will not show up. If they do show up you can hear their engines and see their shadow pass over the battlefield. They can either fire rockets, drop bombs or strafe infantry. If you click on a unit that is being targeted by a plane it will show a line going up towards the plane. Fighter Bombers can also be shot down by AA assests. I hope this helps you. Have Fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye3 Posted February 8, 2001 Author Share Posted February 8, 2001 A chance they will not show up? Why would that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Weather, interdiction short of target, new target from home base, got shot down, et cetera. Close Air Support was VERY VERY unreliable back in Big Brawl Deuce. ------------------ Honor, Duty, Courage. Valhalla awaits you, honorable warrior... ------------------ "If you find yourself alone, riding through green fields with the sun on your face, do not be troubled, for you are in Elysium, and YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Oh yeah, and they could just get lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 It may also be an effect of calling for fighters from both sides. They might be too busy dogfighting up there, and burning all their fuel in the meantime, dumping their bombs blind to lighten up to manuever better, etc. I do not know if CM models this, but the chances of *both* sides getting air support over the same location in the same narrow space of time, was pretty darn low, and if planes did meet over a target, they'd probably be more worried about getting shot down by each other, than about helping you. Try calling a couple of planes from just one side. Oh yeah, and make sure the weather is clear, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 I played a QB against the AI last night (500 point Allied assault, I defended, automatic purchase) - and the gamey b**tard AI had bought air support. Showed up just when I moved out to counter-attack (turn 15 of 20) and annihilated one of my platoons, then only to proceed shooting up my mortars. I could not believe it - first time I saw it in a QB. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 I did a test recently with airsupport against a tiger and a puma (IIRC) and some Inf. The fighter bombered the tiger, immobilising it. I then thought it would turn its cannon onto the puma or troops on the next pass. It didnt but proceeded to waist each pass trying to shoot the tiger rather than the Puma or the troops. It didnt do anything to the tiger which just sat there in comfort. This was not with the lastest version however so Im hoping this has been corrected in recent patches. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 Originally posted by Pud: I did a test recently with airsupport against a tiger and a puma (IIRC) and some Inf. The fighter bombered the tiger, immobilising it. I then thought it would turn its cannon onto the puma or troops on the next pass. It didnt but proceeded to waist each pass trying to shoot the tiger rather than the Puma or the troops. It didnt do anything to the tiger which just sat there in comfort. This was not with the lastest version however so Im hoping this has been corrected in recent patches. Pud Sorry - I fail to see the problem. Fix what? ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye3 Posted February 9, 2001 Author Share Posted February 9, 2001 I agree, fix what? It seems to me that a Tiger sitting anywhere NOT on fire is an indication of a Tiger that MIGHT still be alive. I would continue to try for the bigger harder hitting weapon if I were a fly-boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 I wouldnt expect its 20mm(?) cannon to take out a tiger? Which it didnt after numerous passes. In that time the Inf and the Puma would have both been KO'd. A immobile tiger I would think would be a far less a threat than all other active units. eg I have taken out an immobile Panther with a 40mm armed Daimler (2 shots), I also have taken out an immobile Tiger with 2 squads of Brit paras (smoked it and rushed in). Which is my point, immobile tanks are vulnerable to all sorts of attacks, and therefor fighter straffing should be redirected to a mobile threat that it has a reasonable kill chance. I gather I am alone in this line of thinkng. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 Originally posted by Pud: I gather I am alone in this line of thinkng. Yep - this is 1940s air support. If I were you I would consider myself lucky that the flyboys did not say - 'Oh, we have immobilised the Tiger, but there are some more right amongst our infantry. Sure they are olive and have white stars on them, but those Germans sure are sneaky...' The plane did show up, attacked with effect, and did not proceed to shoot up your troops. More than you can expect, nothing to fix. If you really believe it is a bug - then it is impossible to judge from your post whether you have any case. Whose Tiger was it? Did you know that it was immobilised (even so, since your ground troops are not in contact with the planes, the plane may not know)? Was the Tiger in a position to threaten your troops? Etc.pp. Just saying 'please fix or somefink' won't really make other people come round to your view. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 You supporting fly boy is, at his closest, 1000 feet in the air and going 400 miles per hour. He hasn't the faintest idea what make of tank that is. You are lucky he IDed it as German at all. And he does not know its condition. If he sees a big column of smoke, he will assume it is knocked out, otherwise he will hit it with everything he has got, and hope something KOs it or immobilize it or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 I agree with the comments made about what an airman might be thinking when he sees a tank and that he might concentrate more fire upon it, even though it has not moved. But other airmen might decide that it is out of action as it has not moved since his last run over the target. As for fixing it, it is a featurer of the game and has to be lived with. By raising the question it lets other people know of these features and allows people to accomedate them. It is after all only a computer program, but if it could be programmed to randomly decide if it (the plane) moved onto another target that might be more realisitic? All these "what if" questions are great to discuss so we get a better understanding of the complexities of what is being modelled. I feel at times some people are a bit harsh on new people in here when they discuss things which the "vets" have already seen and discussed previously. I wonder if anyone has ever talked to a wartime pilot to ask this sort of question. I guess it would not be relevant as people under war conditions often just do things without thinking, pretty much like day to day life. Just my few pence and random thoughts... H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sig Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 Originally posted by Pud: I did a test recently with airsupport against a tiger and a puma (IIRC) and some Inf. The fighter bombered the tiger, immobilising it. I then thought it would turn its cannon onto the puma or troops on the next pass. It didnt but proceeded to waist each pass trying to shoot the tiger rather than the Puma or the troops. It didnt do anything to the tiger which just sat there in comfort. This was not with the lastest version however so Im hoping this has been corrected in recent patches. Pud My experience with the fighter-bombers: I haven't been able to find any predictable behaviour when they attack, except that they consistently seem to look after everything that has tracks and/or wheels. Mmmh, which BTW *is* a predictable behaviour... They give this feeling of being outdoors in the middle thunderstorm, wondering where the next lightning bolt will hit: no control, just hope my umbrella, er...AA guns will protect me. I like this kind of unpredictability, which IMO is something which makes CMBO so addictive. Sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye3 Posted February 9, 2001 Author Share Posted February 9, 2001 You're a rookie pilot. You're flying 200 mph, you are at some distance at each pass. How do you know the Tiger is immobile or just faking it? That's what I was getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinci Posted February 10, 2001 Share Posted February 10, 2001 if you're a rookie pilot you probably won't even know what a tiger looks like.... Actually one of the big problems encoutered with air support was the chance of mistaken attacks. A good number of people got hit by "friendly fire" (even as recently as the gulf war), that is why they started plastering big flags on them to avoid air attacks by their own side. In essense, air support is one big gamble - they may not show up, the probably won't attack what you want them to attack and if you are very unlucky they will drop a bomb on you. So don't buy them. Great for show though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 Gentlemen, allow me to give you an idea how bad IFF (identification, friend or foe?) can be with vehicles in the real world. I was in a U.S. Army reserve artillery battery. Not normally direct fire, so it was not considered a terribly high priority to be good at IFF. They still had regular classes on it, with packs of ID cards with pictures of the different vehicles of all NATO and Warsaw Pact nations. Right? We have gunners in the battery - the guys looking through the sight, not ammo handlers - who after several years in the service could not tell a Russian tank from a British one to save their life. On a freaking card. Sitting down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pud Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Good points, I was only thinking from a total battle angle not from the point of the pilot being unable to really be sure if its just stopped or is immobile. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 One fighter bomber destroyed 92 of my veteran British Airborne, 3 Piats, 2 2-inch mortars and pieces or parcels of six other support units IN THE FIRST TURN of a ladder tournament game. I have faced bombers many, many times before and they never did nearly the damage to justify the purchase. They are the great, great gamble (much like a 300mm Rocket FO). I would only purchase a bomber if A) I knew my opponent was a much superior player or/and I knew he was going to show up with a tank I could not otherwise defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest claespiper Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 In my last game I had my air support hit an enemy tank that was abandoned (i.e not burning). I though it was a pity, but how can you blame the guy in the plane, he cant see if the tank is abandoned or not. I was glad he attacked something that was not mine In another game one single bomb took out three open topped AFV's AND a tank, the jabo continued to immobolize another tank. So it can go either way. Any way, you can't expect the pilots to know what you know. Regards Claes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadeye3 Posted March 3, 2001 Author Share Posted March 3, 2001 An addition: I was playing a test game (me playing both sides) where the germans had air support. Their plane attacked the allied shermans for about four turns. After that it was like the german pilot went brain dead. He started fying over the german troops killing anything he could find in a fox hole. Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grunto2 Posted March 6, 2001 Share Posted March 6, 2001 aircraft ramblings: i have this battle where i have 3 canadian air missions on turn 2, then 5 on turn 25. in an earlier version, there were 6 german 20mm aa guns in a row, a halftrack or kubelwagen by each one; and a high-leadership platoon hq in the middle of the row. they were in scattered trees along a road. i would think that the allied airplanes would want to go straight after the flak units, especially with them all in a row like that. wouldn't they want to clear those out so the rest of the german units would be more open to air attack? would it have been suicide for an airplane to have strafed along those scattered trees, all 6 20mm having a bead on it? what about a p-47? could it take 20mm fire? anyway, it seemed like the aircraft were attacking other targets instead of the all-important aa units. that screen of 6 20mm, combined with 2 37mm and 2 quad 20s... it pretty well kept the allied air activity down. in particular the quad 20s were in the open and perhaps should have been 'dive-bombed.' in another version of the scenario there are about 7 sdkfz 7/1 and 2 sdkfz 7/2. i do believe 1 7/1 was taken out by a strafe, but it may have been a 50mm mortar (man those are murder on german halftracks). as a side note, in the same overall scenario, there are 10 tigers crossing about 1.5km of farm fields laced by horizontal and vertical sunken roads. one tiger was crossing a field when it got straddled by an attacking plane's two bombs. it kept right on going, one of the bombs having made a crater reaching right to the tiger's tread on one side of the tank. i was impressed. i think that a panther would have been taken out. that isn't the only tiger i've seen keep going after a near-miss by a bomb. there was at least one other instance of a near-miss by a bomb and a tiger continuing on unscathed. so score a point for the tiger in the tiger-panther debate; the tiger's better all around construction is useful against bomb near-misses. i haven't witnessed an airplane rocket attack in the game. do these really happen? it seems like it's always bombs. what's the percentage of rockets versus bombs are carried by the allied aircraft? does it vary from month to month? in any event, i would recommend in the larger dyo pbems and online games, that the german player buy at least some aa units. the 20mm are useful against halftracks and infantry if nothing else. they actually do a number on greyhounds as well. the 37mm aa actually does quite well against the side armor of shermans. it definitely smokes halftracks and greyhounds. the quad 20 sdkfz 7/1 is a great vehicle, especially in shorter-in-time scenarios where ammo capacity isn't as much of a consideration. andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Aircraft weapons and influenced by the country they are from. i.e. British will be mosre likely to have 20mm cannon's and rockets (like the Typhoon FB)while Americans have 2 500lb bombs and quad .50 cals (Not unlike the P-47 or P 51). The Luftwaffe will most likely have 20mm cannon's and 2 500lbers (FW-190?). These are not written in stone however. I've seen British with bombs and Yankees with rockets. ------------------ And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve My website! A major source of Wild Bill scenarios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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