Arty spotters on vehicles

[Marko Litmanen]

To my disappointment it is not possible for a artillery spotter to call arty support while embarged on a vehicle.

I'm not perfectly sure about how things were 60 years ago but I know for sure that finnish arty (flames to the other thread please ... )has been capable to do it for several decades now and without any modern gismos. So please you who know better historic facts please tell us all about it.

For example a supply convoy with embarked spotter can call in arty strike very rapidly staying in his staff car. It's annoying to disembark and re-embark ...

Marko Litmanen, artillery spotter in reserve

[Panzer76]

There already have been several discussion on that topic. If u do a search Im sure u can find it.

[Stoffel]

Hmm,are you a familymember of the greatest soccer (from the past 11 years playing for Ajax)player with that name?????

[Marko Litmanen]

Ok Panzer76, I'll take a closer look.

I'm afraid Jari is not related, but believe me people keep asking me the same question continuously! My last name is a bit rare so the confusion is more than likely .

[Bullethead]

Marko Litmanen said:

To my disappointment it is not possible for a artillery spotter to call arty support while embarged on a vehicle. ... So please you who know better historic facts please tell us all about it.

This is all a matter of game engine limitations rather than a question of historical facts.

Your problem is with radio FOs because wire FOs can't embark in vehicles at all. This is a function of the engine's inability to deal with all the issues concerning laying wire, so there's an underlying assumption that a wire FO only has a small spool allowing only limited foot movement.

So now radio FOs. The reason they can't call for fire in a vehicle has nothing to do with them being FOs. Instead, it's because the game engine has a rule that says no embarked unit of any type, whether infantry, MG, FO, or gun, can shoot while embarked. Hell, they can't even use the LOS command. This isn't realistic, of course. Grunts, MG teams, radio FOs, and even some ATGs could all shoot while embarked. Unfortunately, the game doesn't seem able to discriminate between units capable of embarked firing and those incapable of it, so no unit gets to shoot while embarked. Hopefully, when BTS rewrites the engine, this issue will be addressed.

At various times there's been some discussion of having dedicated FO vehicles. In these, the FO would be the vehicle's "weapon", so wouldn't be able to disembark at all, but you could call for arty from the vehicle. IOW, kinda like how mortar vehicles work, only with an FO inside instead of a mortar. I thought at one time these were going to be in CMBB but since they're not, I figure they came up against another engine limitation.

[Vilho Nenonen]

Originally posted by Marko Litmanen:

To my disappointment it is not possible for a artillery spotter to call arty support while embarged on a vehicle.

I'm not perfectly sure about how things were 60 years ago but I know for sure that finnish arty (flames to the other thread please ... )has been capable to do it for several decades now and without any modern gismos. So please you who know better historic facts please tell us all about it.

I believe that other armies used that kind of FO. We would not. It is not precise to my understanding. Probably wonderful for armoured or mechanized units, because it might be the only way to direct fire.

For example a supply convoy with embarked spotter can call in arty strike very rapidly staying in his staff car. It's annoying to disembark and re-embark ...

Rapidly yes, but without good precision I believe.

[Michael Emrys]

Just to make things more complicated, embarked HQs can spot for on-map mortars. I think this is because the game engine only cares if there is an in-command line going from the HQ to the mortar in this case.

Michael

[L.Tankersley]

I just sort of assume that CM FO teams are composed of the kind of people that get carsick when they try to read in a moving vehicle, and that's what prevents them from calling in fire while embarked.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Just to make things more complicated, embarked HQs can spot for on-map mortars. I think this is because the game engine only cares if there is an in-command line going from the HQ to the mortar in this case.

Michael

I never noticed that, man you learn something new all the time with this game.

[Marko Litmanen]

Vilho said:

"...if that's the case, would you then illuminate me that how would you be able to call ..."

Now if I understood your question :

Target reference points are laid on projected enemy attack positions near the road the convoy is going to use before it takes off.

En route the barrels of the firing unit (battery, battalion, what ever) are being directed to the next TRF as the convoy moves enabling as rapid a response as possible.

Now if the enemy attacks the convoy stops.

If very lucky the enemy is found on TRF and can be fired at right away.

If enemy is not directly on TRF then it can be fired with a method using a correction from the nearest TRF: "Fire three salvos 300m left and 200m forward from TRF 3, my location is ..." would be the the words of the spotter. All this needs is the spotter team to measure the distance and direction to the TRF and it takes very little time.

Did I answer your question?

[The Oak]

Hopefully someday...CM 3

"From February of 1942 to April of 1944, 262 Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf E/F/Gs were up-armored and converted into Artillerie Panzerbeobachtungswagen III (Sd.Kfz.143) - observation vehicles which served with Wespe and Hummel batteries until the end of the war. Panzerbeobachtungswagen III had a dummy gun mounted and in the place of original gun, Kugelblende (ballmount) for a 7.92mm MG34 machine gun was installed. Sd.Kfz.143 had a crew of five and was equipped with powerful radio equipment."

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz8.htm

[TN]

Originally posted by Vilho Nenonen:

[QB]

I believe that other armies used that kind of FO. We would not. It is not precise to my understanding. Probably wonderful for armoured or mechanized units, because it might be the only way to direct fire. It would have been accurate enough for Finns to try it, but not probably very easy.

I've read some reports of this in accounts of the StuG battalion in the Tali-Ihantala battles. I believe one or two officers had been trained to direct fire from an armoured vehicle, but he/they became casualties relatively early after the battalion had been committed.

[ October 22, 2002, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: TN ]

[Marko Litmanen]

This discussion seems to turn to this special armoured-spotter-vehicle-thing. This is not what I meant.

Spotters should be able to call arty support where ever they are (national limitations aplying of course)!

On the ground standing, sitting, running(?), etc. embarked on a vehicle top, cockpit, roof, etc.

as long as they are not hiding and as long as the vehicle is not moving and they have communications ok.

If I understood correctly this is a limitation in the engine.

What I also cannot accept is the fact that if the spotter is killed/wounded the artystrike that is been fired stops instantly! Who the hell is going to tell this to the batteries or battalions?! Who cares if the spotter dies! He has just given a direct order and it will be followed even if he dies in the middle of it and the strike should finnish normally.

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Marko Litmanen:

What I also cannot accept is the fact that if the spotter is killed/wounded the artystrike that is been fired stops instantly! Who the hell is going to tell this to the batteries or battalions?! Who cares if the spotter dies! He has just given a direct order and it will be followed even if he dies in the middle of it and the strike should finnish normally.

You don't have to accept it as such a limitation doesn't exist anymore in CMBB.

From the New Features section :

Artillery strikes will continue beyond the incapacitation of the FO if:

1. The strike was planned on turn one (i.e. a "preplanned strike"), or

2. The strike had begun firing spotting rounds (or, if it’s not the type to fire spotting rounds, then was within the time period where spotting rounds would otherwise be fired).

[Marko Litmanen]

Good news! Reading the manual made me worry.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Marko Litmanen:

as long as they are not hiding and as long as the vehicle is not moving and they have communications ok.

If I understood correctly this is a limitation in the engine.

The problem is that the FO would need some time to orient himself, so he could possibly spot from a vehicle that has been stationary for x rounds. But the game doesn't "remember" such info, hence it isn't possible to code that in.

And just having spotters target fire from a vehicle that doesn't have any movement orders that round would result in incredibly gamey situation (eg, a FO rush :eek: ).

In fact BF.C has said that the movement options for FO are actually unrealistic for a CM scale engagement, as they would be prepositioned anyway. But the movement was coded in to provide some flexibility.

Battlefront.com posted September 26, 2002

Administrator

Member # 42

[..]

Basically there are two types of FOs:

1. Radio

2. Wire

In real life neither of these moved around much during a battle because neither were very mobile. However, the Wire FO was (basically) static for the duration of the battle. Only under exceptional circumstances did such a FO team move during the fight. And when they did so it was generally to a prepared secondary "fallback" observation point, not some random point on the map.[..]

Now... about Radio FOs... simply put they should be slow due to the size and delicacy of their radios. Most man portable radios required two men to transport, and even then both were pretty weighed down. It was difficult to do much of anything with the radios while walking because one guy had to adjust the controls on another guy's back. And no FO could ever call down artillery from a vehicle unless it was stopped and he had enough time (about 5-15 minutes) to orientate himself to the target and the battery, then do the calculations for fire control.

[..]

Hope that helps!

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Wildly OT: my first name is also Marko, but when I was old enough to ask my parents why all they remembered was that it was Finnish or somefink.

[ October 22, 2002, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[Marko Litmanen]

And no FO could ever call down artillery from a vehicle unless it was stopped and he had enough time (about 5-15 minutes) to orientate himself to the target and the battery, then do the calculations for fire control.

Actually (Uber )finn FO doesn't need to do any calculations since they are all done in safely behind his back with the battery/battalion.

He just calls and gets. Another nasty requirement from finns ... ok this is beginning to sound a bit too nitpicking even to me ... but since this game is all about historical accuracy you asked for it. Here I came Tero!