Richard Marchand Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Hi, So what are good books about this historic clash? Here are two examples: Hitler Move East (1941-1943) by Paul Carell This book cover the war on the Eastern front from 1941 (Barbarossa) to 1943 (end of the Stalingrad battle) Scorched Earth (1943-1944) by Paul Carell From the start of 1943 up to the East Prussian frontier in 1944. Those 2 books, totalling over 1300 pages, are one of the best account of this front. From the big plans on paper to the execution in the field. From the German and the Russian side. The mistakes, the fate of fortune, the bad luck. A lot of soldiers stories. Absolute blast to read. If you can find them, buy them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Oh dear. "Best"? "BEST"??? Did anybody bring popcorn? I can hardly wait to see how this one turns out... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Personally, if it isn't written by Guy Sajer, I don't believe it could possibly be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Murray Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 David Glantz' Zhukov's Greatest Defeat: The Red Army's Epic Disaster in Operation Mars, 1942 covers an almost unknown period in the Great Patriotic War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 I get to be the first to mertion that Paul "Carrell" was actually a high-ranking nazi and a member of the nazi-propaganda machine? Wow, that's like getting the first post ..only better. Let's just say that his observations on the war as seen from the russian side are questionable to say the least... If you can read german here's an interesting piece on Obersturmbahnfuhrer Paul Schmidt: Kriegs- und Nachkriegskarriere des Pressechefs im NS- Außenministerium [ December 04, 2002, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Foxbat ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lassner.1 Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Here here Foxbat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Personally, if it isn't written by Guy Sajer, I don't believe it could possibly be true.ISTR that Bruce Quarrie's book on tank battles on the Eastern Front used quotes from Sven Hassel books to add a touch of "realism". Personally, I think that none of the sources so far mentioned are as good as an obscure Jo Cordes soft-porn cartoon called "Gretchen et le SS Panzer du Mort", which I think I might still have knocking around in an old copy of "Fluide Glaciale" or "Pilote". In English, of course, there is the epic "Peter Rabbit, Tank Killer"... All the best, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: I get to be the first to mertion that Paul "Carrell" was actually a high-ranking nazi and a member of the nazi-propaganda machine? Wow, that's like getting the first post ..only better.And a liar about his military background... My favourite quote on this one from the forum: 'Was Franz Kurowski in the same outfit as Paul Carrell?' Err, not quite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaegerMeister Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Okay so you have pointed out the ones to avoid, but really, i and others would like recommendations on some real gems, what with xmas lists to fulfill and all. I have 'The road to Stalingrad' John Erickson?..which seems very informative and was thinking of getting the 2nd part '..to Berlin', any others?..how about 'Panzer Battles' Gen.Mellenthin. ?..or unit actions such as 'SS Wiking'? I've just re-read 'Campaign in Russia - Waffen SS on the Eastern Front' by Leon Degrelle, about the Belgian volunteer assault brigade and his personal experience leading them, which i thorougly recommend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by JaegerMeister: ...how about 'Panzer Battles' Gen.Mellenthin. ?Read that a couple of decades ago. Mildly interesting, but I hear that like most generals writing after the war, he was engaged in a certain amount of reputation rehabilitation. Best practice is to read these kinds of books alongside someone with a more objective approach so that you can spot it when the vacuum cleaner gets turned on. Michael [ December 05, 2002, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by JaegerMeister: I've just re-read 'Campaign in Russia - Waffen SS on the Eastern Front' by Leon Degrelle, about the Belgian volunteer assault brigade and his personal experience leading them, which i thorougly recommend.Degrelle's is the best Eastern Front book I have ever read. His description of Tscherkassy is particularly good... The next on my list is "Like a Cliff in the Ocean", a history of the 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf", translated into English and recently published by Fedorowicz Publishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: I get to be the first to mertion that Paul "Carrell" was actually a high-ranking nazi and a member of the nazi-propaganda machine? Wow, that's like getting the first post ..only better. Let's just say that his observations on the war as seen from the russian side are questionable to say the least... I don't know what criteria you use to consider someone a "high-ranking nazi" or a "member of the nazi-propaganda machine" but I think any rational criteria for those designations would most certainly exclude Paul Carell... I find it quite interesting that those who wish to criticize Carell always point to his BACKGROUND. They never seem able to find anything specifically incorrect in his writings. As for his "observations on the war as seen from the Russian side", his books are intended to be from the GERMAN point of view. If you're looking for the Russian point of view, you should read someone else... I've read all of Carell's books and highly recommend them for anyone interested in the German miliary in World War II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by cbb: Err, no it would not. He was the head of the propaganda department in the German Foreign Ministry during the war, heavily involved with Signal (you do know that Signal was a propaganda rag?). He also held the rank of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer (Lieutenant-Colonel), which I presume was in the civilian SS, not in the Waffen SS, since he lied in his books about his military record. He entered the SA in 1931, well before the Machtergreifung, and switched to the SS in 1934. Here is some of his propaganda, aiming to find a justification for the persecution of Jews in Hungary: From the website linked above by Foxbat - I am afraid you have to speak German. So, no matter how much you liked his books, fact of the matter is that by any standard Paul Karl Schmidt was a high-ranking Nazi propagandist, and a liar. You are welcome to enjoy his books, but you are not welcome to claim that he is anything else than what Foxbat claimed. And finally, the background of a writer is very important in evaluating the quality of the information he imparts. In his later books, Carrell/Schmidt advances the idea of a German preventive war against the Soviet Union. That is complete bollocks, and driven by his old propagandist instincts. Whether you want to believe anything he writes before I leave up to you. As a writer, I think he has done more than anyone to warp our perception of the war in the east. Personally, I am glad that he is gone now, because it means his lies and propaganda can be buried with him and he will no longer be able to cook up new ones. His sort were the worst Germans, the ones who after the war tried to find the excuses, and whitewash what had happened. Goodbye and good riddance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by cbb: I don't know what criteria you use to consider someone a "high-ranking nazi" or a "member of the nazi-propaganda machine" but I think any rational criteria for those designations would most certainly exclude Paul Carell...Joined the party in 1931, switched from brownshirts to black in 1934 (IIRC) was head of the propaganda division of the foreign ministry. Not really a high-ranking nazi in terms of bodycount but pretty high on the ladder in the nazi propaganda effort (wasn't he jointly responsible for the "Signal" publciation? You know the full-colour all-illustrated glossy on the joys of army life and the gallant victories of the german army and it's co-belligerents). I find it quite interesting that those who wish to criticize Carell always point to his BACKGROUND.I wonder why they always point out his background as a propgandist? They never seem able to find anything specifically incorrect in his writings.Other than that it is full of holes and "anecdotal" hyperbole that is allegedly based on his experiences (uh-huh based on Signal propaganda articles more like), it gives a horribly distorted picture of the germans fighting gallantly and against the odds (overwheleming numbers of russkies everywhere). He promotes the ideas of Stalingrad as a valiant sacrifice for the greater good (a blatant lie made up by the nazi propaganda machine to whitewash the disaster), Barbarossa as a preventative war the poor germans had to attack before uncle Joe would steamroller them, the Wehrmacht as a clean-hands organisation supposedly all crimes were committed by nasty einsatzcommandas not by the gallant knights of germany, the german warmachine as infallible only the interference of a meddling Hitler prevented the 0bersoldiers of the Wehrmacht from victory.. I could go on and on. As for his "observations on the war as seen from the Russian side", his books are intended to be from the GERMAN point of view. If you're looking for the Russian point of view, you should read someone else...The initial poster mentioned that his works offered a view from the german and the russian side, I found that remark quite funny I've read all of Carell's books and highly recommend them for anyone interested in the German miliary in World War II.They are very readable and cover most of the war in the east (at least the bits that were important to the germans, let's not mention how the russkies got to Berlin, they just did). But it's closer to boys-literature than to serious history (and nazi-inspired boys-literature at that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 I guess Andreas beat me to it Here is a global translation of Paul's advice to the Hungarians: "From a quite good overview of the running and planned jew-actions I understand that in june a major action on the jews of Budapest is planned. The planned action will by it's size cause great awareness and will lead to an intense reaction. The opposition [enemy] will cry out and talk of manhunt and such, and with horror-stories try to work-up a change in attitude in the neutrals. I would therefore implore that this should not lead to the cancellation of actions but to the providing of external reasons and meaning for these actions, for example explosives in jewish community centers and synagogues, sabaotage-organisations, plans for a revolt, assaults on the police, grand monetary schemes with the intent of undermining the Hungarian economy. The key-piece in such an action should be a especially torrid example, on which one can then justify the main razzia." Staatsarchiv Nürnberg NG-2424 [translation by Foxbat] In short he's telling them to cover-up the razzia rather than bluntly saying it's a jewhunt. Propaganda 101 of course, but it clearly shows his involvement in both the propaganda apparatus as well as his links to the nazi-agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by JaegerMeister: Okay so you have pointed out the ones to avoid, but really, i and others would like recommendations on some real gems, what with xmas lists to fulfill and all. When Titans clashed, by David Glantz. Covers much the same as Erickson but in pocketbook format. Very readable especially for a work by Glantz focuses on the operational and theatre level, which may seem boring to some but at least it avoids the anecdotal/tactical stuff that fills many a page in other works*. * Anecdotes are fine with me, but they generally digress into the kind "and the valiant tank commander Hans Klumoenstrumpfer [Ivan Unprounouncablelastenameov] rode into battle peering the horizon for Jabos [Stukas] when he suddenly heard a crack in a bush 800 meters away. "Ambush!" he shouted, "enemy 76mmgun with Subcalibre loaded [88gun or somefink] in that bush at 3 o'clock". His tankgun roared as it fired it's deadly load into the bush. With apparent disregard for his own life Hans [Ivan] clambered onto the turret and used his binoculars [a pair of dusty specs] to ascertain the destruction of the threat he had localised only seconds ago, and that could have cost his, his crew's and their wives and children their lives had it been succesfull in it's ambush. That may be fine for some, but to me it just obscures what really happened when Hans was so bravely kicking russian's ass during the Korsun relief attempt. [ December 05, 2002, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onodoken Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Hi there: Here are a few... German Army Handbook, James Lucas Barbarossa, Alan Clark (MUST HAVE) The German Army 1933-1945, Mathew Cooper Kursk 1943, Osprey Books Their War, Wil Fowler & Mike Rose Panzer Grenadier Division Grossdeutschland, Signal Publications Hilter's Army, Combined Books World War II encyclopedia of Facts & Figures, John Ellis The Second World War, West Point series. Ostfront, Charles Winchester The Eastern Front, Steven Zaloga Atlas for the Second World War, West Point Atlas of the Second World War, Harper Collins Panzer Commander, Hans Von Luck Fighting in Hell, Peter Tsouras Blood tears and Folly Vol. I & II, Len Deighton Soldiers of Destruction, Sydnor Das Reich, James Lucas Panzer Leader, Heinz Guderian Stalingrad, Anthony Beavor Hitler's Panzers East, Stolfi Frontsoldaten, Fritz Ostfront 1944, Alex Buchner Panzerwaffe at War Volumes I & II, MBC When Titans Clashed, Glantz and House Barbarossa - Hitler's Invasion of Russia, David M. Glantz Stalingrad, Erickson Road to Berlin, Erickson The Siege of Leningrad, AlanWykes Lost Victories, Manstein On the German Art of War (Truppenfuhrung), Bruce Condell and David Zabecki. Germany's Spanish Volunteers, Osprey Publishing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: I guess Andreas beat me to it Discrediting Paul Schmidt is a full-time job for many people Thanks for the translation - very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaegerMeister Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Phew...thanks Onokoden, just a few then?! and if you had to pick a couple of gems out of that lot, which would they be? My family would think i had gone mad if i presented them with that whole list ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 From that list these would be my choices: When Titans Clashed, Glantz and House Barbarossa - Hitler's Invasion of Russia, David M. Glantz Stalingrad, Erickson Road to Berlin, Erickson Depends really on what you have already read. Clark's Barbarossa is quite a few years old now. I heard it is well written, but I guess his sources would not have been as good as those of Glantz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onodoken Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Alan Clark's BARBAROSSA is a must for starters, and any of Prof. Ericson's books are also excellent. You can pick them up at any local Borders or Barnes and Noble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Rapier Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: From that list these would be my choices: When Titans Clashed, Glantz and House Barbarossa - Hitler's Invasion of Russia, David M. Glantz Stalingrad, Erickson Road to Berlin, Erickson Albert Seatons elderly 'Russo-German War 1941-45' is also very good as it has lots of maps which Erickson in particular seemed to have an aversion to. For those interested in maps, a (large) set of 1942 Russian 1:100,000 scale maps have appeared at Berkeley: http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/EART/soviet_maps.html I've already checked out the 'impossible terrain' around the entrance to the Crimea & the tartar ditch! The cover the Ukraine & Caucasus only unfortunately. Cheers Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Foxbat posts: "Other than that it is full of holes and "anecdotal"hyperbole that is allegedly based on his experiences (uh-huh based on Signal propaganda articles more like), it gives a horribly distorted picture of the germans fighting gallantly and against the odds (overwheleming numbers of russkies everywhere)." I've read Carell's "Hitler Moves East", "Scorched Earth", "Stalingrad", "Foxes of the Desert", and "Invasion: They're Coming." None of those books purport to be based on Carell's personal experiences. Instead, he describes overall campaigns. Some Germans no doubt fought gallantly (just as some fought less-than-gallantly) and they no doubt fought "against the odds". I've never gotten the impression that Carell's descriptions were "horribly distorted"... Foxbat: "He promotes the ideas of Stalingrad as a valiant sacrifice for the greater good (a blatant lie made up by the nazi propaganda machine to whitewash the disaster)" Military historians have debated, continue to debate, and will continue to debate whether Army Group South benefited by the 6th Army remaining in place AFTER it was surrounded. But I have never read ANYONE, including Carell,who attempted to "whitewash the disaster" that occurred at Stalingrad... Foxbat: "Barbarossa as a preventative war the poor germans had to attack before uncle Joe would steamroller them, the Wehrmacht as a clean-hands organisation supposedly all crimes were committed by nasty einsatzcommandas not by the gallant knights of germany, the german warmachine as infallible only the interference of a meddling Hitler prevented the 0bersoldiers of the Wehrmacht from victory.. I could go on and on." There is a fairly recent book, "Stalin's War of Extermination" by Joachim Hoffmann (available from Amazon) which discusses in detail whether Barbarossa was a preventative war (and concludes that it was). This issue is not the focus of Carell in "Hitler Moves East" or "Scorched Earth". Again, these books deal with the military campaign itself. They do not deal with the political causes of the war nor do they deal with the issue of war crimes (either German or Soviet). None of Carell's books that I have read claim the German military was "infallible"... While Carell's books are certainly not beyond criticism (just as books by Ambrose or Shirer are not beyond criticism), I believe many peoples' views of him are clouded by his background. His books should be taken for what they are - detailed descriptions of military campaigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: Very readable especially for a work by Glantz focuses on the operational and theatre level, which may seem boring to some but at least it avoids the anecdotal/tactical stuff that fills many a page in other works*. * Anecdotes are fine with me, but they generally digress into the kind "and the valiant tank commander Hans Klumoenstrumpfer [Ivan Unprounouncablelastenameov] rode into battle peering the horizon for Jabos [Stukas] when he suddenly heard a crack in a bush 800 meters away. "Ambush!" he shouted ... That may be fine for some, but to me it just obscures what really happened when Hans was so bravely kicking russian's ass during the Korsun relief attempt.Yes, but on the other hand, the reader can be quickly put to sleep by Professor Erickson droning on for well over a thousand pages with such lines as: "Towards the middle of February, as Govorov struck out for Narva and Pskove, the Stavka proposed to use 2nd Baltic Front in Operations aimed at Ostrov, with Popov's left flank -- two armies, a minimum of twenty divisions -- committed in the direction of Rezekne." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Bugger. I had no idea about Carell's background. I've been reading his 'Scorched Earth' and was starting to wonder, but only AFTER I dished out a small fortune to get 'Hitler Moves East'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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