Breaking contact with infantry

[Zarquon]

Awfully simple question, but I always seem to get it wrong...

Just assume you were in a PBEM, deep snow, your green platoon is advancing though the wood patches and stumbling upon enemy troops. The firefight turns against you and you decide to fall back a little from the edge of the woods. How? Run? Move? Crawl? Withdraw? Split the squad? No smoke available, not much support from other squads.

(Glenn, I hope you don't read this - too embarassing to ask this)

[Silvio Manuel]

With Green troops you have to assume that they'll break or rout if you have them withdraw/run, and Green troops are difficult to rally. Personally I would use the normal run command...move is too slow to escape, and sneak will just allow them to get pinned in place. I would only do withdraw in that situation if I felt that they would be completely slaughtered where they stand, i.e. facing SMG or Motorized troops at 40m.

[Chad Harrison]

I dont think that I have ever used the withdrawl command after the first few times of using it. Your troops always seem to break and either surrender, lay down, or run off the map. Best command is just to run. If they dont break, that will get them out of there in a hurry. And make the last move point far far away so you dont have multiple delays as you give additional movement destinations.

Chad

[Commander]

I use the withdraw command to quickly back out of a lopsided firefight against the AI. The results are mixed depending on when you do the withdraw and what the unit is. Several times I have had a spotting HQ unit open fire giving away its position when all I wanted it to do was spot for some mortars and I issued a withdraw to back out of direct heat fire quickly. I have also had plenty of sharpshooters and zooks get mowed down while withdrawing. I may also use the withdraw command to get away from any arty bigger than 120mm (if possible).

For your question, if your troops have been spotted and like Chad said, your up against SMG squads (major firepower at 40 meters!) you should lose your attachment to that squad quickly. But, if they have not been spotted yet and you can, then try to sneak or crawl out of there. How close is the enemy?

[ August 29, 2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Commander ]

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Commander:

For your question, if your troops have been spotted and like Chad said, your up against SMG squads (major firepower at 40 meters!) you should lose your attachment to that squad quickly. But, if they have not been spotted yet and you can, then try to sneak or crawl out of there. How close is the enemy?

The trick was that they were green troops. Green troops have been outfitted with titanium lead boots to ensure that they dont get anywhere fast. And when they are being shot at, they would rather lay down with those heavy boots than run under fire!

In close quarters, where the green troops do NOT have the jump on the enemy, the best thing to do is to either pull them out fast with a run command, or stop em cold and let them slug it out. In CM, you never know what might happen! Because even if you do run, they are most likely going to follow (esp. a human opponent) to finish them off. Atleast, I would

Chad

[PiggDogg]

Zarquon,

I use the withdraw command all of the time. It is probably the most useful and necessary command that infantry has. This is especially true for crappe troops like green & conscript. Withdraw is the only command that these guys will obey immediately! :eek:

Granted from withdrawal, they will break & might even rout. However, if they remain where they are getting pounded, they will become surpressed, die in droves, and the remnant will rout anyway. :eek:

Would you prefer more routed green guys in your rear, or would you prefer less routed green guys in your rear? The choice is yours.

Remember, do not be afraid to run if you are outgunned.

Cheers, Richard

[xerxes]

I'm with PiggDog on this one. I use withdraw all the time.

If you are attacking with greenies in the snow and you close with a defender that is now going to kill you. . . your goose is already cooked. The mistake occured earlier, now you just get to pay the price. One technique to get at least a couple survivors out is to withdraw the more rearward squads while the upfront ones get pounded into frozen mush.

Withdraw needs to be used BEFORE you're under heavy fire.

[PiggDogg]

Xerxes,

I agree with you on getting out of Dodge 'before' one gets pounded to mush. If I 'suspect' that my guys are going to be outgunned in a particular sector, I have them flee to the rear with barely a second thought. :eek:

Frequently, but not all of the time, one can judiciously withdraw to a position where one's guys can be protected from much of the enemy fire but can still contribute to superior firepower upon a portion of the enemy's infantry.

Cheers, Richard

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

I dont think that I have ever used the withdrawl command after the first few times of using it. Your troops always seem to break and either surrender, lay down, or run off the map. Best command is just to run. If they dont break, that will get them out of there in a hurry. And make the last move point far far away so you dont have multiple delays as you give additional movement destinations.

Chad

What I always do is have my HQ issue an ambush spot that is about 1 meter away, and have the HQ (and/or its subordinate units) target the ambush spot...that will keep them quiet. For nostalgia's sake I was playing VoT on the demo the other day, and I suceeded in allowing an enemy squad get within 5m of one of my squads, due to the ambush point.

This 1m-away-ambush_point works great for just about any infantry or support unit that you want to keep hidden...it effectively increases their exp.level re: stealth...sweet. Imagine your Infantry AT units NOT firing on those 190m targets any more...you can even give Zooks an ambush target off to the side during their sneak movements, such that when they are done sneaking, they won't just randomly fire...at long as they can still see the ambush point. Keep in mind that they may turn to face that ambush point at the end of their move, even if it's behind them...but that's a small price to pay for good stealth, just rotate them.

[Redwolf]

I tend to leave my infantry in place when heavy fighting already started.

I found no halfway reliable way to get the guys out alife (if no support is available).

So, the only difference between fleeing and dying in place is that the enemy has to expend his ammunition to kill you if you stay in place. It is also more deceptive, if you flee he can reliably tell you are out. If you stay in place he cannot really tell how weak you are. He may initiate hand-to-hand combat which is always in favour if the weaker force, since suddenly everything is back to 1:1 exchanges in wounded men.

Needless to say, a major part of all tactical thinking should be to prevent this from happening. Your infantry should either be strong enough or have support by vehicles, guns or artillery, or at least you should have some gamey way if unlocking the grip on your guys, like using HMGs to draw most enemy fire.

If you take appropriate measure and he is still much stronger, then its good for you, since he must have a majority of forces in that position, and you now have spotted this troop body and most probably bound it for the time being. Forget about your guys there and do something useful in the cheap space.

[Zarquon]

Actually, I'm the defender in this game but I was trying to advance on the map edge with a platoon. Recon is important and maybe you can get into the attacker's flank or back or at least inflict some casualties on moving troops, then fall back. As he has green, slow troops, too, I thought it a good idea. Instead of a single platoon leading the attack, more like a company showed up, so I decided to get away. Possibly my losses were higher than his, so I'm not sure if it was really a good idea.

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Zarquon,

The good thing about doing things like that is that you may have well slowed down his timetable. It is very frustrating to stop your entire attack, and then to consider changing your plans if the enemy has discovered your main effort.

On the other hand, he could always just speed up his troops to get there before you reinforce the target. If my cover's blown, I'm not likely to sit around debating maneuvers to redirect my forces, unless I have time on my side.

If you have more infantry to back up this platoon (i.e. two more platoons), I'd say it was an OK move.

[Tripps]

My understanding was "withdrawing" caused you to suffer a morale hit??

is this so? i have never used the command since i got that impression...

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by Tripps:

My understanding was "withdrawing" caused you to suffer a morale hit??

is this so? i have never used the command since i got that impression...

Yes, troops (especially inexperienced ones) have a good chance to break when withdraw is issued, especially if they are under heavy fire. Think of withdraw as "every man for himself." All control breaks down and everyone runs like hell to get out.

[ August 29, 2002, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Captain Wacky ]

[Silvio Manuel]

I think your Global Morale at the time also may influence it (just a hunch).

I once withdrew a out of command Rifle Team, that had no one shooting at it, although a Sherman was off in the distance, can't recall if it had LOS to my team. Anyway, the squad went to 'panic' right away, and was fortunate enough to not break/rout and get the "!" symbol.

[Redwolf]

The morale loss is limited to the unit in question, though. There is no global morale drop when units panic or rout in withdrawl.

[ August 29, 2002, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Tripps]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The morale loss is limited to the unit in question, though. There is no global morale drop when units panic or rout in withdrawl.

ahhh true, i thought the morale hit in question was actually global morale, and stopped using the command!

i usually reserved it for crews to scat real quick like out of harms way, or for impending arty strikes...

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The morale loss is limited to the unit in question, though. There is no global morale drop when units panic or rout in withdrawl.

What I meant was that when you Withdraw a unit, my theory is that its chance of panicking is related to your current Global Morale. In the example I used, I'm 90% (IIRC) that I had a Rifle Team panic when no enemy units were in LOS. Of course, that may have been b/c it was a TEAM, whose morale is already hurting due to the squad split. My impression is that they act as if they are a 4/9 and 5/9 strength squad, that is a "full-strength" 4-man Rifle Team that loses one more man acts the same as a 4/9 strength Rifle Squad that loses another man.

[ August 30, 2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]