Paul T. Gardner Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Im guessing you may not have seen an SMG in action though ? Before June this year, neither had I, KwazyDog - you still living in 2001? Tell me how you do that man, last time I looked I was 18 and at school, then just today I woke up and hey, I'm 24. What gives? Anyway heres a little info on the Stg44:The Sturmgewehr 44 made history as the first real assault rifle; in fact, the term "assault rifle" itself is a literal translation of this weapon's designation. Obviously, the concept of the StGw influenced Mikhail Kalashnikov in his development of the famous AK-47 assault rifle (although the AK has a system of it's own right). The story of the Sturmgewehr is that of the late success of an ingenious and right idea that prevailed despite all efforts to stop it. Many attempts had been made in several countries including germany during the 1920ies to develop an automatic rifle that combined the characteristics of the submachinegun - a high rate of fire and therefore fire volume - with that of the then usual regular infantry rifle - accuracy and projectile power - while at the same time eliminating the disadvantages of the respective weapon types. Most of these attempts failed, because the conservative authorities did not like the idea or -mostly- because these early weapons tried to use the regular powerful rifle ammunition. The german breakthrough therefore came when an order was given in April 1938 to develop a weapon that used the specially developed Maschinenkarabiner-Patrone 7.92x33 or Kurzpatrone, later also called Pistolenpatrone 43, that was essentially a shortened Mauser 7.9mm standard rifle cartridge filled with pistol ammunition powder. Two notable designs emerged. The first was constructed by the company Walther and was called Maschinenkarabiner 42 (W) or Mkb 42(W), the other was designed by Hugo Schmeisser from the company Haenel in Suhl under the designation Mkb 42(H). The two are easily discerned because the Haenel-design has a second barrel housing the gas-operation channel that reaches almost to the muzzle. The latter design was considered superior and went into limited production for troop trials, total Mkb 42 production was 11,833 weapons in late 1942 and early 1943. These were to be kept secret from the high command, especially Hitler himself, as he was a strong opponent to the idea not the least because he feared the large-scale introduction of yet another ammunition type. Hitler nevertheless found out about the limited production and ordered the it to be halted immediately. However, development continued under the cover of an alibi project of producing a carbine for the accepted Mauser rifle ammunition at the company Gustloff. Several aspects of the Walther Mkb 42(W) were incorporated, the gas-operated mechanism was improved and the weapon was given the designation Maschinenkarabiner 43 (G) for the company Gustloff, again to deceive Hitler. Like the chicken bone the witch is shown in Hänsel & Gretel, Adolf was always shown the official Mkb 43(G) that was designed for the regular Mauser 7.92mm rifle cartridge. The weapon that used the actual Kurzpatrone was simply called MP 43 machine pistol in the hope that Hitler would see this as a submachine gun. Eventually the truth surfaced and Hitler ordered the project stopped. However, in the meantime the army that had used these weapons in the trials was so enthusiastic about this new weapon that they eventually succeeded in convincing Hitler to produce the weapon as a replacement for the MP 40. First large-scale use of this new weapon was with the 93rd ID in the northern sector of the eastern front. After small changes the weapon was called MP 44. It was not until July 1944 when several Division commanders personally begged Hitler in his headquarters that the weapon was given production priority. In December of that same year the weapon was given the suggestive name Sturmgewehr or Sturmgewehr 44, abbreviated StG 44 or StGw 44. Total production of the MP 43 and MP 44 / Sturmgewehr was 425,977 at a price of 66.- RM for one Sturmgewehr 44. The weapon is a gas-operated automatic weapon that can be fired both in selective single-shot and in full automatic mode (toggled by a switch located on the right side of the gun). Recoil reportedly is is arguably low. Because the metal hand guard fore of the magazine heated up quickly when the weapon was fired, gunners usually held the StGw 44 at the magazine instead of the hot handguard. The StGw 44 features a 30-round curved magazine and could be fitted with all known accessories: it could use bayonets or silencers as well as the Schiessbecher rifle grenade device or the ZF 4 scope. The regular sights can be adjusted from 100m to 800m range. The Sturmgewehr 44 could also be fitted with ZF 1229 Vampir, an infra-red night sighting device. The scope for the Vampir mounted onto the StGw 44 weighed 2.3kg, the support devices were carried in a rucksack and weighed 13kg. 310 of these night-fighting scopes were produced at the company Leitz. Another intriguing invention was the Krummerlauf ("bent barrel"), a bent barrel with a persicope sighting device for shooting around corners. This idea existed in several variants, an "I"-version for infantry use and a "P" version for use in tanks (to cover the dead areas in the close range around the tank to defend against assaulting infantry), versions with 30°, 45°, 60° and 90°, and a version for the StGw 44 and one for the MG 42. Only the 30° "I" - version for the StGw 44 was produced in any numbers. Technical data: length 94cm; barrel length 42cm; weight (w empty magazine and sling) 4.62kg; weight of loaded 30-round magazine: 920g; theoretical system rate of fire: 500 rounds/minuteM; practical rof in full automatic mode 100 rpm; Vo 685 m/s. Ammunition: Kurzpatrone 7.92x33; this ammunition is known under the designations Kurzpatrone, Infanteriepatrone 7,92mm PP 43 or as 7.92x33.It was a bottle-shaped cartridge, essentially a shortened regular Mauser 7.9mm rifle cartridge. The projectile had a caliber of 7.92mm and weighed 6.95g; the complete cartridge weighed 16.7g (incl. 1.4g powder) and developed a typical Eo of 1,500 Joule. Penetration performance: 25cm of birchwood at 50m; steel helmets were penetrated at ranges exceeding 600m. Total production of the Kurzpatrone ammunition was 822 mio. cartridges until March 1945. A soldier equipped with the StGw 44 had six canvas magazine pouches in two sets of three as part of his field gear. Each magazine pouch held one 30-round magazine; together with the magazine atached to the weapon, the default ammo loadout for a fully equipped soldier was 7 magazines totaling 210 rounds. From this site: http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust7.htm#stgw44 Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Paul, hehe, my life went into a time warp about 18 months back now... Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Determinant Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Originally posted by KwazyDog: Determinant, fun game, hehe. Im guessing you may not have seen an SMG in action though ? Before June this year, neither had I, but having witnessed their use and firing several myself I can assure you that you wouldnt want anyone shooting at you with either at under 100m. A trained marksman could drop you very quickly from 75m and to be honest I think I probably could with next to no experience with automatic weapons, as they are quite stable and controllable. Over 100m - 150m, yup, then Id rather the SMG! Hehe, Id rather the shotgun though. DanWell grew up during the war in Rhodesia then spent ten years or so drifting around the British Army. I have fired the Uzi; the Sterling; the MP5; and some locally produced Rhodesian SMG (the Cobra or some such) that had a trigger pull that nearly defeated me. I have only ever been shot at accidentally - would never really want anyone shooting at me if they wanted to hit me. But I still think that you'd have a pedalling chance against any SMG weilding mess mate. Remember the key to survival: lots and lots of alcohol works even with skilled marksmen. It also occurs to me that you play a similar game in the States. It's called the hunting season. Those who aren't wearing orange hats are playing. Just a thought. Chin, chin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B: Before you guys get too much further into this, you may want to read the following thread: MP-44 vs SMG discrepancies ."Almost any bullet is going fast enough to wound or kill. In fact, sometimes high-speed bullets (like from rifles) can go fast enough that they pass right through a person and do (a little) less damage than slower bullets." This is from that other thread. I would agree with the first part but completetly disagree with the second. HV bullets create a shockwave that is devastating to any but the smallest body part hit (the forearms and lower leg/no bone strikes). The shape/size of the shockwave is like a small football area inside the victem. The displacement of internal organs and compression of spinal bone/nerve will drop a human (and large animals). I also believe that police use SMG and pistol ammo(and shotguns), in addition to the other reason stated above, because they dont want bullets careening everywhere in a populated area. police should shoot to kill and preferably have the bullet lodge in the target perp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Originally posted by KwazyDog: Before June this year, neither had I, but having witnessed their use and firing several myself I can assure you that you wouldnt want anyone shooting at you with either at under 100m. A trained marksman could drop you very quickly from 75m and to be honest I think I probably could with next to no experience with automatic weapons, as they are quite stable and controllable. . DanI fired the Sterling SMG before it was phased out of military service here in Canada - and I don't remember being all that good with it, nor many of the guys on the ranges with me, and we were firing from 25 metres. But of course, we didn't receive in depth training, just a familiarization. That begs the question - how many men in any army were trained to "marksmanship" standard? The Germans were cramming 16 weeks of basic training into 7 or 8 by 1944 (though I presume the important stuff like weapons familiarization took priority), and the Allied troops in training in Britain found a very real shortage of firing ranges a problem. Would be interesting to know what training a Russian soldier, assigned to an all-SMG unit, would have undergone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorBooBoo Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 The other advantage to higher velocity is cover penetration. If someone is firing a smg at you and you can get some cover, even a small tree to lay down behind, you have an advantage. The combo of the tree and your helmet giving a degree of protection. I have fired AK ammo at different objects and materials. Not sure how it exactly compares to kurz ammo but its impressive. Alot better than most pistol ammo I have fired. At 25 meters it went through two pieces of carbon steel about 1/8" thick. It really punched sideways through the second but did go through. It was copper jacketed ammo. Nowadays, form a military standpoint, SMGs are history. Body armor and Kevlar helmets making them nearly useless to carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Rock Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Many police forces use 9mm SMG rounds and such because they don't penetrate media; that is exactly the point. Less chance of collateral damage. At 40 meters and down, SMGs are great. At the 100 meter point, firepower is: Bren 32 BAR 26 STG44 12 MP40 9 M1 T. 9 sten 9 Garand 7 Kar98 5 I don't think stopping power is an issue in CMBO, but muzzle energy is, at least among similar (automatic) weapons. This will effect cover, whether the bullet is deflected, if it hits the ground will it bury itself or ricochet, etc. At 100 meters, 9mm luger = 259 fpe @ 1007 fps 45 auto = 376 fpe @ 957 fps 7.62x 39 = 935 fpe @ 1956 fps 7.62 NATO = 2072fpe @ 2378 fps At 100 meters a 45 bullet will not penetrate if hit hits a helmet at an angle. Their sights are usually much cruder as well. I would say SMGs are a little high at 100 meters, and should be zero at 250 but not enough to lose any sleep over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puff the Magic Dragon Posted February 9, 2002 Author Share Posted February 9, 2002 Well, let's see the MP-44 as an automatic rifle instead of a MP. If I understood right, that was what BTS had in mind!? I think the only CM weapon can be compared with it in this case would be the BAR. MP-44 = 30 rounds, 500 rpm, 1630 Joule Eo, 34 CM firepower BAR A2 = 20 rounds, 350 rpm, 3545 Joule Eo, 34 CM firepower Hey, they match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted February 10, 2002 Share Posted February 10, 2002 Determinant, I wouldnt know much about that, as I live in Australia Hehe, after large amount of beer Im doubting either weapon would be of much use to be honest. Guys, I see that a second thread had been started about SMG's and firepower, etc, so Im going to lock this one up in order to keep discussions somehwat under control. Please feel free to continue discussions over there Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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