This Is An Entirely Different Game!: My First CMBB Experience

[Col Deadmarsh]

As I'm halfway through the advanced tutorial (my first CMBB battle) I have to say...this is a completely new game. Frankly, I can't tell whether in the future I will like it more than CMBO or whether I will be screaming at Steve and Charles for ruining what I thought to be the best game on the planet.

I'm trying to give CMBB a fair shot at winning my heart like CMBO did but it's not easy. There are so many differences, so many changes, that I hardly recognize my old friend.

In the advanced tutorial, I had a blind mortar round hit 10m away from my IS-2 and immobilze it! This was the first sign that I wasn't playing CMBO: Chapter 2. I mean, this was a heavy tank that had just been rendered useless by a stray mortar round which landed off to it's side. We're talking 60-80mm of armor here! Did it hit the tracks? I never did find out. Hell, in CMBO, that would of needed to hit my tank commander on the head to immobilize a tank of that size. Little did I know, there were more suprises in store for me.

When I managed to secure the nearby forest for a jumping off point for my attack, I ordered 2 platoons of infantry across a large stretch of open field. Yes, it was wide open but with only a silly MG to deal with and a Tiger tank who was 700 meters away. Sure, I might lose a man or two but they'll get to their destination intact. Wrong. The MG somehow pinned and panicked an entire platoon while the Tiger inflicted mass amounts of casulaties off 2 HE rounds. Those who weren't hit or pinned were freaked out by what happened to the others and followed their lead back to the woods where they started. Now, I'm getting frustrated. "This never happened in CMBO!", I said. "What's going on here?"

More carnage soon followed. My enemy, now aware of my position, fired some more of that arty my way. 2-3 treebursts the next turn sent every man in that forest running for home. I couldn't believe my eyes. "What have Steve and Charles done to my beloved game?!" I am now on turn 16 and the AI is kicking my ass. I'm in complete shock.

Will I learn to love the new way or will I become a CMBB hater and stand by my old friend. One thing seems for certain, I don't think I will be able to play both in the future. Embracing one almost seems to mean abandoning the other. I was hoping for an upgrade to the best game around. What I see here is an entirely new product and I'm not so sure I like it. Maybe with time...

[Cameroon]

Apparently you didn't head the warnings that it wasn't the same game and that, yes, your infantry behaves realistically now

I've not had trouble switching between playing CMBB and CMBO, except for cover arcs. I don't play much CMBO any more, BB's improvements are too legion for me to play BO without some disappointment.

I think, in order to have fun and not be frustrated, the first thing you should do is FORGET the tactics you used in CMBO. Suppressive, area fire is a MUST in BB and running is hazardous in the extreme, if under fire. Advance is your friend

Oh, and better luck in the future

[ October 27, 2002, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Cameroon ]

[zukkov]

he he.. welcome to the REAL war, comrad!!

[OddjobXL]

I agree with the respondents here. I find the improved realism encourages much more realistic tactics and, while it isn't always the case, the AI's usual ability to use its forces intelligently while kicking my butt is quite entertaining. CMBO's AI wasn't chopped liver but I'm seeing more consistently intelligent calls being made by the AI in CMBB.

I don't know what happened with that mortar round. Haven't seen anything too odd yet myself but things like that will always happen once in a while.

[Eden Smallwood]

In the interest of efficiency, maybe we should add this list of interesting threads on this subject to the faq? Or not. Anyhow, Colonel, you may find these illuminating, if you haven't seen them:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=001228

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=001875

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=002463

Especially interesting for me personally is the somewhat unanswered question I'll call "Winterhawk's Conjecture", that perhaps the truth of the matter is somewhere between CMBO and CMBB.

Would there be no arguing then, or twice as much?

Eden

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

In the interest of efficiency, maybe we should add this list of interesting threads on this subject to the faq? Or not. Anyhow, Colonel, you may find these illuminating, if you haven't seen them:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=001228

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=001875

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=002463

Especially interesting for me personally is the somewhat unanswered question I'll call "Winterhawk's Conjecture", that perhaps the truth of the matter is somewhere between CMBO and CMBB.

Would there be no arguing then, or twice as much?

Eden

And I thought Winterhawk's belief that infantry was "weaker" was soundly denounced

The "problem" stems from the fact that CMBO made players believe that their infantry were supermen, when in fact they were just men. We've got infantry that behaves more as it should now. There are some issues (brush, wheat, similar not blocking LOS all the time, etc) that detract from their mobility, but I believe those are being fixed.

Infantry shouldn't be able to run around in front of a MG or tank with impunity, just as the good Colonel found out. We could do it in CMBO and with little to dissuade us from doing so, and that wasn't right

Oh, and I thought I'd throw in that the mortar likely killed the exposed driver. I hadn't considered that the AFV was unbuttoned, but that would definitely do it.

I was, at best, an average CMBO player but I had little trouble transitioning to CMBB. I think the key for those having difficulty is as I said, don't try to play BB like you played BO. If you do, you'll just end up frustrated.

[Henri]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

As I'm halfway through the advanced tutorial (my first CMBB battle) I have to say...this is a completely new game. Frankly, I can't tell whether in the future I will like it more than CMBO or whether I will be screaming at Steve and Charles for ruining what I thought to be the best game on the planet.

As one who got the game last week and had somewhat the same experience, my advice is...forget playing the Soviets in the advanced tutorial and try one with the Germans. For intance, if you download the new version of Last Defence (the old favorite from CMBO), you will feel a lot better about the game.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, in addition the tutorial text for that scenario is full of errors and will ensure your losing if you follow it to the letter.

Henri

[Nippy]

I ordered 2 platoons of infantry across a large stretch of open field. Yes, it was wide open but with only a silly MG to deal with and a Tiger tank who was 700 meters away. Sure, I might lose a man or two but they'll get to their destination intact.

Not to offend you, but what you did was just plain crazy! No amount of Vodka or pistol waving Commasars in the world would make Russian troops go up against those odds in real life.

"Don't worry men, we will only be out in the middle of a open field with no cover while a Tripod mounted and scoped MG-42 and a Tiger tank with its 88mm HE rounds shoots at us."

*Ten seconds later the Officer is fragged*

CMBB is a whole new game...

[Foobar]

According to the Ministry of Propaganda, Steve and Charles have confirm.. BFC is engaging in Total War...

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Nippy:

Not to offend you, but what you did was just plain crazy! No amount of Vodka or pistol waving Commasars in the world would make Russian troops go up against those odds in real life.

"Don't worry men, we will only be out in the middle of a open field with no cover while a Tripod mounted and scoped MG-42 and a Tiger tank with its 88mm HE rounds shoots at us."

*Ten seconds later the Officer is fragged*

Lol, yeah I know that sounds crazy but I had no smoke. My on-board mortar team was panicking from the arty on the last turn and my IS-2's didn't have any smoke rounds (what's up with that?)

I figured the Tiger would just get off 1 shot before my men reached cover. The Tiger might even miss me on my run. The problem was, the MG pinned all 6 squads, I sh*t you not. The Tiger then preceded to pick off the men as they crawled back to safety.

Originally posted by Cameroon:

Oh, and I thought I'd throw in that the mortar likely killed the exposed driver. I hadn't considered that the AFV was unbuttoned, but that would definitely do it.

Yeah, the guy was exposed but he's not the driver, right? He's the commander. So how would the driver be affected?

[ October 28, 2002, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]

[StellarRat]

You know it's interesting that you brought this topic up. I just won a game with the Russians on the offense. This was the very first time I had tried to play the Russians. I was surprised at outcome to say the least. By using what other posters had written I was able to achieve a Total Victory.

I used one squad to scout the enemy while three squads and T-34s overwatched.

Whenever I encountered any enemy fire I made sure to return fire with every available unit, even if it was only area fire.

I only advanced my squads when I had the enemy under heavy suppressive fire and I always used the ADVANCE command when moving from cover to cover.

I did everything in bounds. One units moves, two - three units overwatch.

I took my time. I waited for units to move up so that everyone was always in command and control from their HQ. Maintaining cohesion is really important especially when playing the Russians. I also took the time to allow my heavy MGs and 50mm mortars to setup and cover my advancing troops. This made a huge difference, because they were able to pin down the enemy foxholes while the infantry advanced.

I made sure that each platoon could get covering fire from another platoon while advancing.

[Bullethead]

StellarRat said:

I took my time.

That's the whole key to success in CMBB. You MUST take the time to completely coordinate your forces to maximize your suppressive fire, or you won't get your troops past the LOD. IOW, you actually have to use all the proper real world tactics of fire and movement. We said that about

CMBO, but it's really the case now

But all this does, as you noted, take time. Therefore, in many cases, the old CMBO standard of 30 turns for a battle usually isn't enough. I recommend using 40+ turns these days.

[Bullethead]

Col. DM said:

The problem was, the MG pinned all 6 squads, I sh*t you not.

Ah, you've discovered that MGs now are closer to having their real world effectiveness . In CMBB, MGs can switch targets many times per turn, especially if all the targets are close together. MGs now totally dominate the open ground, as they should. As they learned in WW1, you can't just waltz across open ground defended by MGs. Until you suppress or mask them, you can't move.

my IS-2's didn't have any smoke rounds (what's up with that?)

That seems to be realistic. Apparently Russian tanks didn't carry smoke rounds. Gotta think of something else to take care of those pesky MGs now

[Col Deadmarsh]

Thanks for the tips. I'll have to throw out my CMBO tactics and try to slow things up. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be though for some N00b coming over from Sudden Strike or other twitch-fest game. Imagine the tactical culture shock they must go through. They probably want their money back after one ass-kicking by the AI.

Good thing BTS has that no-return policy...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Yeah, the driver was exposed but he's not the driver, right?

No, the driver is the driver.

He's the commander.

No, the commander is the commander. Sheesh, sometimes this place is like kindergarten.

So how would the driver be affected?

When the tank is unbuttoned, the driver is exposed just like the TC is. Haven't you ever seen any pictures of tanks when they are going somewhere?

Michael

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by StellarRat:

This was the very first time I had tried to play the Russians.

You didn't play Yelnia!??!?

Everything you described there sounds *exactly* like what I was *forced* to learn playing Yelnia as Russians a bazillion times.

First thing they teach at Westpoint- Always play the Demo!!

Eden

[malthoff]

CMBB is the real deal. I've played a dozen quick battles and have found this game to be the best I've ever played. Fear the KV2... :eek:

[Len]

No, the driver is the driver.

LOL - puts me in mind of Catch22.

I think it goes like this

"Help him, help him"

"help who?"

"The bombadier"

"I am the bombadier"

"Well help him then"

[Dark Pa]

As a CMBB newbie, I'm certainly reassessing the tactics that used to work in (e.g) the Close Combat series.

I tried a short run with a German platoon from trees into the primate house in the "Zoo" scenario.....they only had 15-20 metres to cover, but they were mown down almost to a man by an unspotted MG.

I felt suitably chastened.....I doubt a real-life commander would order something so reckless. Seemed like a realistic smack-down to me.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

Col. DM said:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

That seems to be realistic. Apparently Russian tanks didn't carry smoke rounds. Gotta think of something else to take care of those pesky MGs now </font>

Isn't it true that tanks in WWII didn't use Smoke nearly as much as we CMBO'ers do? I seem to remember hearing that they had to SKIP the shells, basically bouncing them at least once on the way to the real smoke target, b/c the shell traveled too fast. Plz correct me if I'm wrong. I just thought that these CM "laser" accuracy smoke shells weren't quite historically accurate. :confused:

[Bone_Vulture]

Just to cut short to case in question: yes, the infantry is (realistically) more fragile now, but that also goes for your opponent.

It took me awhile to ditch the use of CMBO-wise move and run commands when facing combat, and switch to advance/assault, and learn how to pin down the enemy infantry better.

[Engel]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

Just to cut short to case in question: yes, the infantry is (realistically) more fragile now, but that also goes for your opponent.

Sometimes annoyingly so. I was playing Retaking Viipuri yesterday, and was quite surprised at having three almost full-strength squads (one of them veteran) to be pinned, routed and panicked by a single machine gun when the squads popped out of smoke about 10m from the house the MG was in, making them then run 50 or so meters over open ground in full view of 2 other MGs.

I could have probably come out of it better, but I felt the time allotted to the scenario (25 turns?) was too short to use a more careful approach.

[Bone_Vulture]

Engel, try moving your platoon in parts. Never expose the whole force simultaneously to the enemy. If you spot enemy MG's at hazardous distances, don't try to suppress them with infantry, but haul in your own MG, or call artillery/armor support. This is a single tactic.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Yeah, the driver was exposed but he's not the driver, right?

No, the driver is the driver.

He's the commander.

No, the commander is the commander. Sheesh, sometimes this place is like kindergarten.</font>

[Engel]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

If you spot enemy MG's at hazardous distances, don't try to suppress them with infantry, but haul in your own MG, or call artillery/armor support.

Retaking Viipuri doesn't really allow for that tactic, since you only have a few rounds of 76mm arty, couple of HMG's and a few LMG's, and a single BT26s for support roles, and most Soviet troops are in excellent positions in buildings or foxholes. Urban environment doesn't really allow much chances to use HMG's on the offensive, and the LMG's aren't nearly as effective in suppressive roles.

The approach route I had taken was actually quite good, since it was sheltered from the other MG's by buildings and terrain, and I expected to be able to use shock tactics and the slope in the terrain to my advantage, and expected at least the veterans to be able to silence the MG. Taking that building would've opened a more sheltered approach to the objective, but when the initial assault failed, I realised that I simply would not have the time or the forces to try it again a second time within the scenario time limits.