The Great (but not über) Finnish Thread II

[Nabla]

Ok, lets continue the discussion here.

If you want to read the messages in the original thread, you can find them behind this link.

[Tarquelne]

What would it take for this thread to become an "uber" Finnish thread? Or is this whole "uber" Finnish thread thing just a myth?

[Keke]

Steve originally wrote:

One of those was Pioneers. We did quite a bit of effort with our primary researcher (Nabla) into this issue. We determined that the Finns utlized small numbers of Pioneers at the front as sort of specialized destruction teams. But they did not generally use Pioneers in larger numbers than this in a CM type engagement. This was half way inbetween Finland's prewar French and wartime German doctrine.

The Finns realized they simply didn't have the manpower and resources to fritter Pioneers away like the Germans and Americans did, for example, so they kept them out of direct combat as much as possible. That resulted in the TO&E you see in the game now. Pioneers are one of the most overused and "gamey" unit picks in CMBO/CMBB so we felt extra need to be restrictive with them.

I´m not quite convinced with this. FE in 1944 every Finnish infantry division had a pioneer battalion, and every infantry regiment a pioneer platoon. They were often used in front line and especially in tank hunting missions. Aren´t the scale of CM just right for specialized destruction teams anyway? If pioneers are one of the most overused and "gamey" unit picks in CMBO/CMBB, it just doesn´t offer a good reason for not allowing Finns to have them at all.

[Nabla]

Originally posted by Keke:

Isn't this how they are included in the game?

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

What would it take for this thread to become an "uber" Finnish thread?

Well I'm quite positive that it takes at least one certain über-Finnish korjausmuunnin:

Ari

[Nabla]

Ari, we are impressed. As you said yourself, this definitely qualifies as über.

You went on a separate field trip to get this photo, didn't you?

[Ari Maenpaa]

Originally posted by Nabla:

You went on a separate field trip to get this photo, didn't you?

Yep, I have to admit that, but I got lots of other photos too.

Juha Ahoniemi lives in Hämeenlinna, so I asked him to guide me to the artillery museum. Very nice trip. Thanks, Juha.

There was lot of material but quite possibly I'm not the most knowledgeable individual to make very throughout analyses out of it. So I'll post some pictures here for the forum members to tear apart

Here, for instance, is a portable radio for Finnish mortar and artillery FOs. Made in 1941.

Info plate says:

A backpack single-channel artillery FO radio for telegraphy and voice traffic. Made in 1941.

Aerial power 0,4 W

Range:

with telegraphy 20 km

with voice 12 km

Frequency band 4,6 - 6,6 MHz

Ari

[ October 22, 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Ari Maenpaa ]

[Keke]

Originally posted by Nabla:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Keke:

Isn't this how they are included in the game?</font>

Did you find Finn troops with stachel charges or somefink?

[Keke]

Great pics Ari! How big is that korjausmuunnin anyway?

[ October 22, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Keke ]

[WineCape]

I vote that the thread to be found here as the most single, most informative grog thread I've EVER read in 3 years on this forum!!

What can I say, I like the Finns; no sledging, no name-calling, just plain, clear arguments backed up by evidence.

MAGNIFICENT!

Sincerely,

Charl Theron

[ October 22, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: WineCape ]

[Juha Ahoniemi]

Hehe, we just HAD TO show for everyone Olduvai's hot chick:

posted by Olduvai into the previous thread:

I dated a Korjausmuunnin in college once. Nice girl.

(thank you, thank you. i'll be here all week. don't forget to tip your waitress)

I hope this isn't invasion of his privacy

[JR 8]

Here’s a direct quote from that RA site:

“In 1950 Target Grid Corrections were adopted for ranging. This meant that corrections were ordered as distances around the line observer-target (OT), Left or Right to get ranging shells onto OT, then Add and Drop to bracket the target. GT or any arbitrary line could also be used if required. Observers no longer ordered a BT range and switch. With this change the British soon dropped the use of zero lines and adopted ‘real’ grid bearings. ”

So the Finnish artillery used already in 1943 a method that wasn’t adopted by the RA until right before the Korean war. So yes, I think we can say that we were at least a little ahead.

[Nabla]

Originally posted by Keke:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nabla:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Keke:

Isn't this how they are included in the game?</font>

Did you find Finn troops with stachel charges or somefink?</font>

[Foxbat]

Thanks Ari, great stuff!

[JonS]

Ari,

thanks for the photo. It looks a lot like the plotting board used by the RA throughout WWII.

I assume Pois and Lisää mean 'right' and 'left'? If so, this means that this Korja was set up for zero line (GT) corrections, rather that target grid (OT) correction.

[edit]The 6000mil circle is kind of interesting too. I'm used to 6400mils. There isn't much practical difference between 6000/6400,* so it comes down to what was felt to be the easiest to use by the respective artilleries. [/edit]

[edit2]corrected spelling that was unclear from photo.[/edit2]

* Although, 6400 is marginally (about 2.5%) more accurate. So much for the überFinns überAccuracy

Regards

JonS

[ October 22, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Juha Ahoniemi]

Originally posted by JonS:

.

I assume Pois (Rois?) and Lisöä mean 'right' and 'left'?

I think they translate about like this:

POIS: take away, decrease

LISÄÄ: more, increase

-Juha

[JonS]

Juha,

thanks. Ok, I _think_ the same thing still applies though. I've read of RA adjustments being made in terms of 'more' and 'less', referring to right and left of GT.

[edit] For clarification, in case you're wondering; 'add' and 'drop' are used to increase and decrease range, and 'up' and 'down' are used to adjust the vertical height of burst for air-burst munitions (smoke, MT, illum, etc)[/edit]

Regards

JonS

[ October 22, 2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by JonS:

If so, this means that this Korja was set up for zero line (GT) corrections, rather that target grid (OT) correction.

NOTE: Ampumasuunta at the bottom means direction of fire.

Basically what happens is the OT correction is transformed into GT correction at the battery site. The FO FE shifts fire giving new coordinates relative to OT, the corrected target location is plotted directly on the map overlay at the battery site and the corrected firing solution is read from the rims and tables.

That is if I got it right watching it being used.

[edit]The 6000mil circle is kind of interesting too. I'm used to 6400mils. There isn't much practical difference between 6000/6400,* so it comes down to what was felt to be the easiest to use by the respective artilleries. [/edit]

Might have something to do with the fact the maps were 1:20 000

* Although, 6400 is marginally (about 2.5%) more accurate. So much for the überFinns überAccuracy

Oh, man ! You got us there. How on earth did they even dream before WWII of hitting a 100m x 100m target with TOT fire with the entire battalion with that kind of inaccurate mil circle ?

[ October 22, 2002, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

What would it take for this thread to become an "uber" Finnish thread?

Me ?

[JonS]

Originally posted by tero:

NOTE: Ampumasuunta at the bottom means direction of fire.

Cheers for that. I hadn't really given that word much specific thought, but I had figured that out

Basically what happens is the OT correction is transformed into GT correction at the battery site. The FO FE shifts fire giving new coordinates relative to OT, the corrected target location is plotted directly on the map overlay at the battery site and the corrected firing solution is read from the rims and tables.

Sounds just like the RA ones I've seen/heard about/read about

Might have something to do with the fact the maps were 1:20 000

It has nothing to do with the scale of the maps. Incidentally, 1:20thou maps are all very nice, but 1:50thou are just as good for what is - after all - an area weapon.

Oh, man ! You got us there. How on earth did they even dream before WWII of hitting a 100m x 100m target with TOT fire with the entire battalion with that kind of inaccurate mil circle ?

I wasn't saying that mils are inherently inaccurate. In fact, I think mils are terrific and would like to see them taught in schools, but that's just me

What I was saying is that the number of mils in the Finnish circle (6000) is marginally less accurate than the number of mils in the RA (and US/ABCA/NATO) circle (6400).

The whole comment was tongue in cheek anyway (but still true), since arty is an area weapon and 2.5% makes no practical difference. Hence the smiley. [edit]er, on re-reading you post I think you were probably teasing me back. Kind of hard to tell with you though. If so, consider me to be rolling on the floor clutching my sides in laughter.[/edit]

Of course, both are trumped by ° ' ", but that's just a pain to use

Regards

JonS

[ October 22, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Battlefront.com]

Wow, a nice start to another classic überfinn thread! Well done Ari and Juha!

Keke,

I´m not quite convinced with this. FE in 1944 every Finnish infantry division had a pioneer battalion, and every infantry regiment a pioneer platoon. They were often used in front line and especially in tank hunting missions.

Correct. However, it would appear that the Continuation War doctrine was a mix of the Winter War (French based) and German doctrine. The difference is that the French system treated Pioneers as very much 2nd line troops, who were only in the thick of battle under dire circumstances. The German doctrine of "assault pioneers" advocated the exact opposite. They were not supposed to be frittered away as if they were standard infantry, but entire Pioneer formations were absolutely supposed to get into the thick of fighting when the situation called for it.

It is interesting to note that the Romanians started off the war with the French system in place. However, from the very beginning of Barbarossa they attempted to use the German system "on the fly". It didn't work out very well and the Romanians spent much of 1942 retraining their Pioneers. But I digress...

The Finns, it seems, appeared to learn in the Winter War that the French system wasn't good enough. However, if one wants to have well trained Pioneers one has to keep them from being comitted like infantry. This is a problem that the Germans discovered and didn't have a chance to rectify because losses in line infantry were so high. Interestingly enough, the same thing happened to their recon units. Dang... I digress again

From what I could tell the Finns decided it was better to keep full formations of Pioneers out of the frontline as a standard practice. Yes, there apparently were a couple of battles were they were thrown into the front as solid formations, but this was the exception to the rule (see below for further comments). The main use was to take Pioneers and divide them up into 1-3 man teams, depending on the task. This way they could spread the knowledge of the Pioneers thinner and have he infantry suck up the losses.

The typical strike force would consist of some hand picked men under the temporary leadership of one or a couple Pioneers. They would get to whatever it was they needed to destroy/breach and the regular infantry would do the grunt work. If the strike force got wiped out the Finnish Army lost only one or two specialists instead of 6-9.

Apparently this system worked very well and the Finns found that there was no need to change it. This makes total sense to me especially considering how well experienced the Pioneers probably became during the middle years of the Continuation War. Tell me... would you as a commander want to risk 6 men with 3 years specialist training/experience on a mission that only 1 was needed for along with 5 lesser trained infantry men?

Aren´t the scale of CM just right for specialized destruction teams anyway?

Yes, and this is what the tank destruction teams are supposed to represent. I remember something about why there are no satchel charge teams in CMBB for the Finns, but I can't remember why. I will ask Charles about it but do not expect an answser soon (he is away for a while).

If pioneers are one of the most overused and "gamey" unit picks in CMBO/CMBB, it just doesn´t offer a good reason for not allowing Finns to have them at all.

Correct. If the reason to not include formations was *only* because of the gamey use in CMBO nobody would have full formations. However, this is not the case. From what Nabla and TSS (Tommi) came up with it would appear more historically correct to keep these formations out of the game instead of allowing them to be misused. If it can be shown that Pioneers were regullarly used at the front in whole formations we could add them.

Steve

[Tero]

OK, I just set up a January 1942 QB (daylight, village, heavy woods) for laughs to test out the ski troops and there was NO snow !!!

[Tero]

Originally posted by JonS:

Cheers for that. I hadn't really given that word much specific thought, but I had figured that out ;)8/qb]

Just being courtious.

[qb]Sounds just like the RA ones I've seen/heard about/read about

So why did the URL on RA state the OT system was not taken up until 1950 ?

It has nothing to do with the scale of the maps.

Just hazarding a guess.

Incidentally, 1:20thou maps are all very nice, but 1:50thou are just as good for what is - after all - an area weapon.

True.

In a 1:20 000 map you can plot your battery position AND the target with a bit more accurately though.

I wasn't saying that mils are inherently inaccurate. In fact, I think mils are terrific and would like to see them taught in schools, but that's just me

What I was saying is that the number of mils in the Finnish circle (6000) is marginally less accurate than the number of mils in the RA (and US/ABCA/NATO) circle (6400).

These days it does make a difference. Back then you could dump shells by the train load and not worry about the costs.

The whole comment was tongue in cheek anyway (but still true), since arty is an area weapon and 2.5% makes no practical difference. Hence the smiley. [edit]er, on re-reading you post I think you were probably teasing me back.

Man. I was not sure you'd pick it up.

Kind of hard to tell with you though.

Well, some people would not be even willing to pick up the humour even if they were able to spot it in a statement like that. Über, remember.. ?

If so, consider me to be rolling on the floor clutching my sides in laughter.[/edit]

Of course, both are trumped by ° ' ", but that's just a pain to use

Peace, man. insert SMILEY

Not more than 8 smiley. BFC please fix or somefink !!!

Time to start bugging the KB manufacturers to produce KB's with ALL the ASCII chars under its own button ?

[JonS]

Originally posted by tero:

So why did the URL on RA state the OT system was not taken up until 1950 ?

That is incidental. Moving to OT makes the FOs job a bit easier, and the BHQs job a bit harder. With either OT or GT the BHQ still has to convert map data into something the guns can use directly, which is what the Korja and the RA equivalent does. The difference is that until the RA changed to OT their equivalent didn't also have to convert OT to GT, since the FO had already done that.

Incidentally, and slightly off-topic, I have heard of an RNZA FO who, during the war in Vietnam, would order corrections as a change in bearing and elevation. In other words, he had memorised the firing tables, and was able to convert OT to GT, and then figure out individual gun corrections in his head. He did this 'cos he found it quicker and more accurate than getting the BHQ to do the calculating for him.

How's that for über?

[ October 22, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Keke]

Steve, thanks for the reply. I´m just reading Niilo Lappalainen´s (Finnish historian) book "Ihantala kesti", and I´m just right now on pages 64-65, where it is told how 3rd Company of 23rd Pioneer Battalion was equipped with satchel charges, smoke grenades and newly arrived panzerfausts, and was sent to destroy nearby 6 or 7 enemy tanks that had got through the frontline (25.6.1944).

And adding some spice to the überFinn mythology: Four of those pioneers attacked one SU-152, blinded it with smoke grenades, and shot it with panzerfaust making it immobile. Tank crew bailed out, 2 of them were shot, 2 managed to escape and the last suffocated to death, because smoke grenade was thrown into tank. SU-152 was repaired and given to the Tank Brigade. At present this very tank can be seen in Parolan Panssarimuseo (Tank Museum of Parola). :cool:

EDIT: Took away the long quote of Steve´s reply

[ October 22, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Keke ]