Silvio Manuel Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 I apologize for not being able to cite which forum member wrote this guide- which the author made to help a newbie pick either a competitive ladder force or a realistic/historically accurate one. I did several searches to no avail. This is an offshoot of the OT force selection discussions currently going on in the "Swamp" thread. Anyhow, here's the text- I hope you find it to be useful: "I would not recommend to try to optimize your forces early in your against-human career. If you still want to approach a ladder-capable force selection, here are some tips: - no expensive tanks. They are toast against experienced ladder players. Only expensive tanks worth it are Jumbo, Churchill VIII, Panzer IV/70, Jagdpanther and King Tiger, but only in big enough games so that they are not alone - HE capability is more important than AT capability. Also you usually have enough HC ammunition. The British 95mm is especially nice - Big arty is better and more cost-effective than small one. When you play an experienced opponent, get the biggest mortars you can, you need the fast response time - Avoid thin vehicles. You need Priests, Sexton Wespe and 251/9 to get the HE capability, but be sure you have enough other armour so that the thin stuff only needs to operate in very limited ways - There is no conclusion on whether big or small squads are better or more cost-effective, matter of taste - SMGs are more cost/ammo-effective (I can't use them, however). MP 44 and MG 42 - heavy squads can be very effective, but are very bad to get destroyed - Veteran armour is not worth it. Veteran AT teams are. Other stuff may vary. - German turretless armour is very cost-effective - avoid flamethrowers and engineers, they get too many victory points for the opponent on knockout. If you get on-map mortars, watch your crews, don't let them get captured - always have a small gun to shoot up intruders in your own home - Flak guns, including 20mm tanks and vehicles are extremly precise If you want realiistic gameplay: - get rifle infantry - get HE-heavy support AFV or tanks, but not both. Support stuff may be paired with few TDs. If you choose tanks, get many of the same or similar kind. Howitzer tanks count as support AFVs. Real SP arty like Priest, Sexton, Wespe has no business in frontline except for exceptions - get mortars and small arty FOs, not the big stuff - get very few veterans or better - mix lots of crappy transport stuff into the force, especially on meeting engagements - as the allies, get a fighter-bomber - as the British on attack, get flamethrower vehicles - don't mix M8 HMC in any force that doesn't resemble cavalry (means no armour besides Greyhounds). Also they are artillery that should be preferred to be used indirect (reads: you get the 75mm FO) - as the Germans on defense, mix in expensive guns, don't only rely on cheap guns paired with Panzer IV/70 or Jagdpanther for serious AT defense. If you need to defend against heavy tank forces, it is more realistic to have StuG (not StuH), Jagdpanzer IV (if any armour), Hetzer or even Marders, paired with big towed guns. - attacking as the allies, don't have 37mm or 40mm armour (Daimler AC, Greyhound, Stuart). They ruin bunker and pillbox realism and they emphasize the turret undermodeling of the Panzer IV" Thanks again to the unknown author, and happy purchasing. [ February 08, 2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 A nice summary though I have to point out ladder play and historical can go together. -marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted February 8, 2002 Author Share Posted February 8, 2002 Good point Xerxes... I agree- personally if I were playing on a Ladder, I would want to find opponents who liked semi- to almost fully-historical/realistic forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoffel Posted February 8, 2002 Share Posted February 8, 2002 Try my Day of the wasp scenario for historical scenarios ruin your day in ladder play whem you choose the allied side I had to give the germans considerably less weapons than they had,the canadians got slaughtered in this battle. Which to me wasnt a big surprise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: Good point Xerxes... I agree- personally if I were playing on a Ladder, I would want to find opponents who liked semi- to almost fully-historical/realistic forces.Aehm, folks... The whole point about the list above is to get a force that is acceptably historical, but still competive in ladder play. So that you can use ladder play to improve your skills in handling realistic forces without being blown away by a cherry-picker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Thanks redwolf, you wrote that if I am correct and also if no one previously mentioned that. Could you elaborate on this post either via this this forum or to my e-mail? If you feel liek there is anythign you could add, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 I didn't see an email. When did you send it? The above list is somewhat outdated, maybe we can tune it a little with help from others and put it on a webpage somewhere. It *might* lessen the realism/laddergamers tension somewhat (not that I am holding my breath...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted February 9, 2002 Author Share Posted February 9, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: Good point Xerxes... I agree- personally if I were playing on a Ladder, I would want to find opponents who liked semi- to almost fully-historical/realistic forces.Aehm, folks... The whole point about the list above is to get a force that is acceptably historical, but still competive in ladder play. So that you can use ladder play to improve your skills in handling realistic forces without being blown away by a cherry-picker.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 No, silly... I meant send me an e-mail.. oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: Redwolf, I'm not sure what you mean. The two lists seem to be: 1) Ladder-capable Guidelist: throws historical TO&E's and deployments out the window for the sake of racking up wins on ladders, i.e. the recommendations to buy British 95mm tanks, big arty, SMGs, etc. 2) Realistic Guidelist: sacrifices min/maxing for the sake of historical accuracy and to encourage real world tactics, as opposed to exploiting the shortcomings of CMBO. I don't see the compromise in these two lists to produce forces that are "acceptably historical, but still competive in ladder play." I agree. I think the lists are mutually exclusive. Trying to meld them together for ladder play will probably end up hurting you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 9, 2002 Share Posted February 9, 2002 OK, re-reading above list, it isn't exactly the blend I said. Still, there is a point to make here. You can have reasonablity realistic forces that are not doomed to fail against a cherry-picked force. And it make sense to play such a force, you learn to handle the realistic force. And whatever some of the "gamey" - bashers say, the actual play and tactics on the ladders are usually good and realistic applications of military principles, especially of mass and security. Just because you play a realistic force you don't play realistic tactics. And just because you don't throw away 30% of your purchase points by missing the obvious cherries (that your opponent will take), you are not a gamey bastard. [ February 08, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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