Problem with my tank utilization? Please read!

[lazysack]

I'm having trouble using my tanks effectively.

I've tried getting them to higher elevations and just leaving them there to spot enemy tanks, artillery, etc, while advancing my APC's, infantry, etc.. But at most I get one tank or tank killer for every one of mine.

I've used them as close infantry support, getting them behind buildings/cover as quickly as possible and using my troops to get a lay of the land, and in the case of bazooka or PIAT units, I'll set up tank traps. But even then, when I try to get around the corner and pick one or more off with one or two tanks, I'm still averaging a 1:1 ratio. The most success I've had is just leving them behind buildings and waiting for enemy tanks to come within range.

I'm always stuck scrounging for tank killer units to finish the remaining enemy tanks off, and indeed get more tanks that way than with any tanks of mine..

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.. If you need more elaboration as to my way of going about those above strategies don't hesitate to ask!

Thanks in advance for any and all comments.

[ August 04, 2003, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: lazysack ]

[Auggy]

Mass armor on a single target. If you can put 3-4 guns on a single tank, the odds are in your favor.

The overwatch technique, should only be used if you have superior armor, say a King Tiger.

Another tactic is to attack from the flanks, getting to first shot, and perhaps the second shot in before he can respond to your fire.

[lazysack]

Hmm.. I agree I have to turf the overwatch technique. I always go for the allied side, and their tanks aren't so good..

I just got slaughtered on the "Canadian Confrontation" battle.. I had 4 tanks on that rise to the left of the map.. Started out good.. nailed the pillboxes, a couple tanks.. Then they started coming out of the wood-works and I had 4 burning wrecks from 3 or 4 enemy tanks that were clear acrosss the map!

So, the way to go is to get them behind buildings and have infantry find the tanks, and pounce enmass, eh? I've tried it before with limited success, as I mentioned.. I'll try to be patient and wait till they expose their flanks..

Thanks, keep 'em coming!

[Cambronne]

My favourite maneuver is to sneak my armor behind a hill (or any elevation) or a forrest,then suddenly appear by surprise with a superior number of tanks on the heights or by the corner of the forrest,in the rear or flanks of the enemy tanks or positions.

[kingjames]

After constantly losing the armor battle while commanding allies, I finally figured it out. I use my tanks for decoys and take out their armor with my zooks.

[IntelWeenie]

Another tidbit for Allied vs. Axis armor:

Pop up tanks (from behind a hill crest, building, etc.) at widely spaced intervals at slightly different times. As most german tanks have slower turrets (or none for STuGs, TDs) they will slowly turn to engage the first tank to pop up. Of course, you've set your tank to reverse back to cover after taking a shot or two (this is the rough equivalent of the "shoot 'n scoot" command in CMBB). While the german tank is turning in it's hopefully vain attempt to shoot at tank #1, tank #2 pops out from cover on the other flank and gets a shot or two at his side. Make sure to give tank #2 a command delay so he doesn't pop out too soon! Of course, he will be set to reverse also in case he doesn't get a kill.

There's 2 things that can make this work for the allies. Shermans are fast and can lay their turrets on target fairly quickly. The bigger German tanks have slower turrets which greatly increases engagement times for flanking targets.

[Dandelion]

Lazysack,

Problem? 1:1 on average in duel situations is good, means you're doing fine.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Beta1]

Cant emphasis angles enough.

Make sure you engage from a different direction than he's facing that way he cant fire back immediately. The best way to do this is using the pop-up technique above but sometimes even just using an AC to draw the enemy tanks attention works.

[Portero]

Originally posted by kingjames:

After constantly losing the armor battle while commanding allies, I finally figured it out. I use my tanks for decoys and take out their armor with my zooks.

I use the same method, seems like zooks should be worth more than tanks

[lazysack]

Thanks for all the great ideas!!

One question. How do I get the tank to take a few shots before reversing back into cover? Do I have it PAUSE after it reaches the crest of the hill, then reverse?

Thanks again!

[ August 05, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: lazysack ]

[IntelWeenie]

It's just a matter of timing. You'll probably need to experiment a little to get used to the different tanks' speed capabilites on various terrain types. Usually, just give a "move" command (fast move has too great a penalty) that sticks out from the cover 10-20 meters. Your tank should get off a shot before reversing back to cover. Depending on the tank's speed, distance for your move command and unit experience, ROF, etc. etc., you can get off a shot both moving forward and while reversing. Targeting the enemy tank (even without LOS) can sometimes help if you don't have much of a delay before breaking cover and gaining LOS to the target.

There's no way to give a pause command in the middle of a string of movement commands. The closest to that would be "hunt", but that can be a bad thing in this situation since your tank will stop and continue to engage the target without completing it's pop-up and therefore won't reverse back to cover.

[lazysack]

Hmm.. Ok.

I tried out those suggestions on "Canadian Confrontation" again and fought them to a draw this time..

I'm still too eager to engage these tanks.. I have to just let them come to me... They (enemy tanks) didn't even get in range of the PIATS I had waiting in the taller buildings.. It was hard keeping my tanks hidden, even behind buildings, as in this map they're coming from 3 sides in a pincer movement.

Oh well.. I'll try again tommorow..

[ August 06, 2003, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: lazysack ]

[Beta1]

Ideally you dont want to be shooting while moving.

I think the best way to shoot and scoot is to give a move command that reaches the shooting position towards the end of the turn. Say 10 secs or so, then next turn give the reverse order. This way the tank should get a couple of rounds off while stationary when it has the best chance of hitting.

Getting to into position at the right time is just a matter of practise I'm afraid.

[Sanok]

Pop up tanks (from behind a hill crest, building, etc.) at widely spaced intervals at slightly different times. As most german tanks have slower turrets (or none for STuGs, TDs) they will slowly turn to engage the first tank to pop up. Of course, you've set your tank to reverse back to cover after taking a shot or two (this is the rough equivalent of the "shoot 'n scoot" command in CMBB). While the german tank is turning in it's hopefully vain attempt to shoot at tank #1, tank #2 pops out from cover on the other flank and gets a shot or two at his side. Make sure to give tank #2 a command delay so he doesn't pop out too soon! Of course, he will be set to reverse also in case he doesn't get a kill.

How does one "write the order" to do this?

[Dandelion]

Sanok,

This requires some explaining, but I think Intel and the others mean:

Calculation is based on three factors,

1. Speed - which is given for each vehicle in meters per second (click the vehicle then push Enter for the info screen on the vehicle)

2. Order delay, which is evident on the unit interface. Once you give an order (just try it out by giving any order, you can always recall it) you will see a number of seconds "pause" on the interface - that's the order delay.

Use these two to calculate how long it will take for your tank to reach a crest or summit. Thirdly,

3. The Pause order, giving 15 seconds extra pause every time you push the "p" key on your keyboard.

With the pause order (all pauses are taken before any other given order is executed) you add time to the time calculated as per above.

EX: A Pz IVH tank has a max speed of 24mph or 10,7 m/s. The distance to a crestline is 25 meters (distances can be checked using the LOS line). Thus it takes 2,3 seconds to reach it using the Fast command (max speed - presuming it is open terrain). The tank has an order delay of 9 seconds, meaning it will actually take 11,3 seconds to reach the crestline. If you give the order, it means your tank will be at the crestline for some 48,6 seconds during this turn. That's a wee bit too long for comfort. Rate of fire for a Pz IVH cannot be generally concluded, as there must be target acquiring and so forth, but 48,6 seconds is still too long. Beta says 10 seconds, I say 20-25 seconds - its really a matter of personal experience.

You will recall that your next opportunity to give orders will be next turn, in which you will have the 11 second delay again before the tank starts to reverse. In the light of this, you only want a spare 9-14 seconds in this turn. So, you push the "p" key, 3 times for a total of 45 seconds of nothing. In effect, that means your tank will stand still for 45(pause)+11(delay) (=56) seconds, then start to move, reaching the crest on second 58,3 of that turn. It will probably not have time to acquire any target on the 2,7 seconds remaining, but you might get lucky.

At any rate, as the next turn starts, you already know your tank is inevitably on the crest for 11 seconds (the delay), and that it has been there for 2,7 seconds already. So, if you feel lucky, give reverse order and push the "p" button once, if not don't push the "p" button. If you push it, the tank will pull back after 26 seconds into that turn, giving a total stay of 28.3 seconds on the crest. If not, its 11 and 13,3 respectively, a time schedule more akin to that recommended by Beta above.

See, its easy really

However:

When using "hunt" order, maximum speed is not used (as presented in the info box), in the case of the Pz IVH as in the example above, speed goes down to 2-3 m/s in my experience. There is no chart displaying such changes of speed, nor any taking into account the effects of terrain and ground conditions, buttoned or unbuttoned. These are the experience factors described above. You'll have to either develop a feel for it, or make extensive field testing in the editor to make charts including these factors.

On the other hand, when using "Hunt" and advancing up to a crestline, your chances of attaining 'hull down' are excellent, as the tank will stop at first glimt of the enemy (if not buttoned).

In the tactics presented by Intel, he suggests - as I understand it - you use one vehicle as decoy at at least 45 degree angle away from your killer tank. This decoy vehicle will want to:

1. Appear in sight of the enemy before your killer tank does and

2. Disappear before the enemy can acquire him as target, normally some 2-3 seconds. Meaning normally that you don't want to wait out any order delay, but simply order it forward and then immediately to reverse (you can achieve a few seconds in enemy sights by ordering it a few meters "too far" forward before reversing), all timed so that when the decoy disappears from enemy sight, the killer tank appears, at some 45 degree angle (at least).

Got it?

And I still think 1:1 is a good enough ratio on a human opponent.

Regards

Dandelion

[lazysack]

So if the rate of speed X amount of distance is constant, and pause order is given before cresting the hill but after..

Oh my, I've gone cross-eyed..

[ August 08, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: lazysack ]

[IntelWeenie]

Lazysack, the best thing to do is just load up a QB (or better still, make up a simple battle so you can reload it several times to "fine tune" your orders in a known situation) and practice it a bit. Keep in mind, too, that there will be times the unexpected happens. A common problem is that the TacAI sometimes pops smoke and backs the 1st tank off instead of engaging and drawing fire.

Yes, the idea is that the 1st tank is basically a decoy. However, don't discount the chance that under certain conditions he can still get a good shot or two off and maybe get a gun hit, immobilize the target or even kill it himself. Still, it's always a good idea to use a faster, smaller tank or AC for this job.

Note also that this tactic is not exclusively useful for inferior tanks to engage uber-tanks. Uber-tanks can use it also, especially when you have good crews with good 1st round hit probablilty. The "pop-up" maneuver minimizes your exposure to enemy fire while allowing your Veteran and above crews to pick off one or two targets before they mass fire against you (and someone gets lucky - see previous paragraph). There's few things more maddening than having your Jagdtiger take a gun hit from a Stuart!

[lazysack]

I'll try that, thanks!

I haven't even bothered making a scenario yet..

[Howard R]

I have found the "hunt" command to be effective only if my armor is on top of a hill. They usually stop in hull down to engage the enemy that way.

With inferior armor it is important to get the first shot, and that means intel, intel, intel. This is where ACs and Recon vehicles are so useful. The 37mm and 50mm AC cannon can destrpy most vehicles with side and rear shots, so be sneaky. Spot the other guy with Recon.

Another aspect to this discussion is your current tactics that result in the loss of your tanks-I read somewhere (age is destroying what was left of my mind) this theory-

use your tanks against his infantry. Use your infantry against his anti-tank weapons. Use your anti-tank weapons against his tanks. I mean, any variant of the Sherman head to head with a Panther, Tiger, etc. is going to lose.

A German tank commander is said to have observed: "One of our tanks could easily defeat ten of yours. But you always had eleven!"

[lazysack]

I have found the "hunt" command to be effective only if my armor is on top of a hill. They usually stop in hull down to engage the enemy that way.

I've picked up on that, too. I'm using "fast move" alot more sparingly, too.. Mostly sticking to "move".

I can't wait until I can get a better computer so I can get the most out of CMBB! That "shoot and scoot" command was sure handy when I played the demo..