C&C in CMBB.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

This is just a short note on the traps waiting for those modelling C&C in CMBB. I am in favour of different treatment for some Soviet units but great care is needed.

I am not against penalties for Soviet AFVs that do not have radios. However, there is a need to be careful as to “which” commands are penalised for lack of a radio. i.e. It is reasonable to add a delay for a movement order that would have come from the platoon commander by radio. However, it would not be reasonable to add a delay to a fire order that would normally come from the AFV commander.(Of course, the lay out of Soviet two man turrets would result in delays, but that is a different topic.)

Also, bear in mind that the German army in WW2 fought largely without radios, at the CM level. Panzer units had them, but infantry units did not use radios for internal C&C. A German infantry battalion had four radios, if fully equipped. One for communication with division, one with regimental HQ and one each for communication with the units on the flanks. Importantly, “none” was for internal communications. In CMBB care will have to taken not to penalise the Soviets for lack of radios, when in reality the Germans did not have them either.

Views will differ on this, but in my experience the number one trap awaiting all Eastern Front games is to imagine differences between the Soviets and the Germans, that in reality, did not exist. To give just one example that was much discussed three or four months ago. The difference in the delay times for called artillery fire between the Soviets and the Germans, from the summer of 43 onwards, were often only a couple of minutes. I do not wish to reopen the artillery debate, we have had that one and Steve outlined a number of features that sounded just the job. The important point is that when dealing with the Soviets care is needed not to penalise them more harshly than the Germans for inadequacies that were equally great on both sides. For example, lack of radios for communication within infantry battalions.

From what I read on this forum, the way different levels of training are to be modelled in CMBB hits the nail on the head. The way human wave and assault are to be modelled is an example of this. So delay times due to the Soviet squads and crews being less proficient in their battle drills are to be welcomed. Mainly during the first half of the war. But be careful not to get carried away. It would be an easy mistake to end up indirectly assuming German infantry companies and platoons had radios, when the Soviets did not, to give one example.

Hugely looking forward to CMBB,

All the best,

Kip.

[jgdpzr]

Kip,

If history is indication, I don't think you should be overly concerned. I think BTS has a very clear track-record that they heavily scrutinize any nationality modifiers. In sum, I think they share your trepidation. Yes, they have admitted they must do things a little differently on the East Front, but where I have seen this being discussed the most is in terms of vehicular C&C, and the addition of human wave commands, etc. And as you admit, they HAVE to do something to model those differences.

Personally, I think what you will see is that the people hoping to see monumental differences in Soviet and German troops are going to be the ones disappointed. Steve and Charles will rely on quantifiable variables, and this will likely once again disappoint those relying more on anectdotes.

[Grisha]

Kip,

I understand your feelings on this, as I feel the same way on this issue(Hard-core Red Army groupie here). What I've heard regarding vehicle C&C sounds good. And when you think about the end effect of poor C&C or training/experience it usually comes down to time really. What is commonly referred to in these modern times as the 'decision loop'. If BTS penalizes Soviet units that try complex maneuvers by adding on time for said maneuvers, then it's not very far from the truth, since this will restrict the Soviet player to simpler, and possibly more costly, actions. I do agree that by mid-1943, this sort of characteristic should be gone, except for the use of penal battalions, but then that should be the case for German penal battalions as well.