manchildstein (ii) Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 i was reading on a website ( http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/panzergrenadiere-1939-1945.html ) that the '40 panzer division had 2 panzer regiments (1 brigade) and 1 infantry regiment. it seems that in '41 they went to 1 panzer regiment and 2 infantry regiments (1 brigade). is this correct? does that explain how they went from 10 panzer divisions during the battle of france to 20 at the outset of barbarossa, with negligible tank production in the interim? was another factor the replacing of some pz i and ii tanks with pz iii and iv? i mean would that explain where some of the 40-41 tank production went, despite few if any more tank battalions in total in the same period? i looked at a '39 panzer division and indeed it had 2 regiments (brigade) of tanks - mostly light - and 1 regiment of infantry (2 'understrength battalions'); yet in '41 i see the single panzer regiment/full infantry brigade configuration. http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii ok.. another quick question about the freeport-tech oob for the 20th panzer in '41... the 92 'recon' 'battalion' shows what appear to be 100 armored cars in 2 large companies (24 20mm/26 lmg in each company), but with 'f' inserted in the diagrams... are these french armored cars? if so, how would they be represented in cmbb? i mean... that's one large recon battalion ... grin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 20, 2002 Author Share Posted December 20, 2002 to be specific, the first site says, "In 1940, the typical Panzerdivision had a tank brigade of two regiments, and a rifle brigade of one infantry regiment and a motorcycle battalion, as well as the usual artillery, recon, engineers, signals and other divisional assets. " so make that one infantry regiment with a motorcyle battalion in '40, as opposed to two infantry regiments with a motorcycle battalion in '41. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 21, 2002 Author Share Posted December 21, 2002 bump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Bit simplistic to say that Panzer Divisions in 1940 had this and Panzer Divisions in 41 had that. There is a great deal of variation in both years. Here's some good info on all the 1941 Panzer Divisions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 21, 2002 Author Share Posted December 21, 2002 right... i went to that very site and picked out a '39 division at random... and it had two tank regiments... then in looking at the '41 divsions they all seem to have 1 panzer regiment... indeed it is simplistic as you say... what got me started on this was the thing about '40 divisions (on that other page) having two tank regiments... because immediately i thought about the freeport-tech site and rememeber all of the ones i'd looked at from '41 as having just a single regiment... so i was wondering if, between the french and russian campaigns a lot of the panzer division expansion - increased number of panzer divisions - was (in general) done by reducing the number of tanks in each division ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Originally posted by manchildstein II: so i was wondering if, between the french and russian campaigns a lot of the panzer division expansion - increased number of panzer divisions - was (in general) done by reducing the number of tanks in each division ...I think you mention tank production yourself, obviously if they have a large expansion of panzer unit without a large increase in the number of panzers that can only be achieved by cutting the number of tanks per unit So simplistically they did "double" their divsional strength without doubling their tank strength and, so simplistically it is as you say they dropped a tank regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 21, 2002 Author Share Posted December 21, 2002 again, after having stared at those freeport-tech oobs for the past few weeks i was simply taken aback at the mention of '2 tank regiments' in the '40 divisions... i had to do a double take... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Originally posted by manchildstein II: ... does that explain how they went from 10 panzer divisions during the battle of france to 20 at the outset of barbarossa, ...Correct! The reason being that experience from France showed the importance of supporting infantry. The organisations from '41 on reflect and correct this. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KG ThorsHammer Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Hitler decided to double the number of pz divisions for the attack on Russia. As tank production was still painfully slow, they supplied the new divisions by cutting the number of tanks per division in half. This was not necessarily a bad thing, as unless opposition was especially tough, 200 tanks could do the job of 400..it was the shock and concentration on a key point that mattered, like the heavy cavalry of old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 The numberof tanks in a panzer division steadily decreased througt the war as Blitzkreig became bankrupt and the "hammer" effect of armoured thrust was lost. Effectively they became motorised/armoured infantry formations with integral tank support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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