New Tactics Question

[Commander]

I would like to hear from people who have used guerilla fighting tactics in their games. What did you do and how did it work out? I am considering using quite a few guerilla type tactics in my next PBEM game and am curious if anyone thinks this would be considered a gamey thing to do.

[Warmaker]

My stint at this was short lived and disastrous. If your only aim is to inflict SOME casualties, then this is it. Never mind holding onto an objective. On the offense, the whole Guerilla warfare thing just doesn't work unless you greatly outnumber the defender. By then it's just another attack/assault. It just seems to work more to a "defense" IMO.

Now, if you're using Monkey Warfare as part of your defense to stall the enemy then it has uses. If the attacker is stupid and impatient enough he may divert enough forces to chase those poor schmucks down instead of using them for the actual attack.

If your after support units to attack, then good luck since all you'll see in CMBO are combat units. Well, except for those trucks. Attacking from the flank/rear units like AT units and HMG teams can yield some results.

To sum it up, it sucks in my experience. For delaying the enemy it has merits. If all you're doing is Monkey Warfare then don't expect to hold onto your objectives if the opponent is disciplined.

[Commander]

It would be really hard to use GT (Guerilla Tactics) in a historical scenario. I think in a "large" quick battle where you get to choose the troops you could get by with GT.

Which begs the question, "How can this benefit me so that I can win my next game with it?"

One answer is to dedicate a portion of your forces as a "quick hit" or "get in, get out" type battle formation. The objective of this force group would be to operate alone and use search and destroy tactics with the aim of taking out major enemy assets (main battle tanks and/or other mechanized force with a cannon and/or machine guns...) This group would not sit and fight a battle of attrition. Its mission is to locate a high value enemy asset, move to engage, fire and disengage. (Ideally, hit your opponent and cause losses without your opponent being able to retaliate) Your opponent has to deal with this threat constantly (think if you had three or four forces like this?). This could cause your opponent all kinds of grief (in attacking or defending a VL). Comments?

[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Commander ]

[Warmaker]

One thing I would like to add is of course terrain. It is easy to imagine that lots of dense terrain would be ideal for your infantry to hide and run away in. Not to mention limiting the assets that can be used to chase down these men, i.e. tanks. Open terrain can be limiting to your setup and ability to move in concealment.

I also think that it may work better in larger games where you can divert enough points for men to do this type of work. In the small games I've experimented with this it strains too much of my resources to have a valuable platoon or even squad for some menial work. On the defense, I've got a VL to hold or map edge to prevent access to. Diverting precious forces to play Rambo in the woods while the rest of my men are barely (and eventually failing) holding onto the VL is no longer my cup of tea.

BTW, the more I get into this the more I seem to drift into a delaying action mindset...

Anyhow, how about troop selection for this type of work? As much as I would love to have a PzGren/FJ platoon do this they're just too nice and expensive. Same goes for other elite formations such as the Allies' AB units. For this, the simple, cost effective Rifle platoons will do. Toss in a LMG team for suppression and an AT team ('zook/PzSchreck/PIAT) to deal with armored targets. Better yet, 2 AT teams would be great. The trick is to keep everything infantry to make use of the terrain but still light enough to move about. HMG teams IMO are too heavy for this, unless you're going to lure your pursuers into a trap setup by them further back as you withdraw. Also, if the terrain favors it, SMG and Gebirgsjager platoons really come into their own. Devastating close range fire will reap you nice body counts and the cost of the SMG plt. is dirt cheap. Attaching a FT team maybe nice and very destructive, but FT teams are pretty expensive in CMBO. However, if you REALLY want some spark into these actions, bring some pricey but spectacular Engineers. The opponent will be quite surprised to see satchel charges starting to fly along the flanks of his column.

One other thing I want to add: If you want to play this type of fighting, playing the Germans is it. Historically, they were pretty much on the defensive anyways. Also, you have the troop variety to pull it off. It doesn't have to be expensive PzGren./FJ units to do it, either. SMG platoons or the decent close range firepower of Rifle Platoons (of any nationality ) can pull it off with decent points cost. But what tips the scale to the Germans is that their squads have Panzerfausts. At the close ranges your trying to fight, the lowly Panzerfaust-30 suddenly becomes quite deadly and you can add heavy armor to your target list. Not to mention the sheer armor killing power of the 'faust and any PzSchreck units you take.

[Redwolf]

How do you define Guerilla tactic, anyway?

In CMBO terms, you can win a game without taking the flags, if you inflict enough damage for few enough own damage.

One possible approach is, if you know your opponent will use many AFVs of questionable Anti-Tank capabilties (read: Howitzer Vehicles), you can buy an strong tank destroyer force, knock out all his armour and retire from the map.

There are several drawback, however:

- Strong bigass tanks won't do it. You would have too few and the rate of fire (of the whole tank unit) is too low. You need to "right-size" and anticipiate your opponent's choice. Ideally, he tries to drive around in Uebertanks or Priests, Hummels etc.

- So you probably will use Jacksons or similar. The German stuff won't work well, since without a turret you cannot traverse the map to hunt his armour down

- If you have Jacksons or so, you will have own losses, they are thin

- Obviously, you loose if the opponent doesn't select a lots of AFVs. This trick will not work twice in a row

Also, it is difficult to exit the map with all unit. If you miss some but not many units at the end of one turn, they may surrender. Very bad for points.

In any case, your opponent will not like that.

Myself, I don't have a problem with it and in fact I used that tactic against an opponent I knew I didn't have a chance against. The point about doing that wasn't to turn *this* game. But to keep him from buying too many HE-intensive vehicles next game, so that I wouldn't be just blown away in the next game. Next game he ran over me with Gebirgsjaeger..., but anyway, in both cases, he couldn't score a total victory because of own losses (the AFV in the first game and the infantry losses in the second).

[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Scott B]

I've had positive results with an all-Gebirgsjager force in a fairly large night battle. How often this will apply (defending at night or in limited visibility) may depend on other factors. My units of choice were Veteran Gebirgsjagers each with a Veteran Panzershreck team attached, and they managed to knock out a number of vehicles. I also used a number of sharpshooters. Given their similarity to other SMG infantry, I think Volksgrenadiers would do well in place of Gebirgsjagers as well.

Some tactics that seemed to work well - engage an enemy unit with a sharpshooter or an enemy vehicle with an infantry anti-tank weapon and try to provoke your opponent to send an appropriate force to take out that team (likely a platoon or squad). A waiting platoon of infantry, even if they're a vanilla rifle platoon, should be able to inflict serious damage to an equal-sized force when it opens fire, and the value of turning a company or more on its heels to respond to a new threat to the flank or rear can't be measured well in points.

Bagged several vehicles in rear area ambushes as well - this probably isn't going to happen all that often against an opponent with close infantry support of his vehicles.

Probably the most important advantage to deploying forward (extending the depth of ones defense, to some extent) is the gaining of early intelligence on enemy maneuver. In a limited visibility scenario this can buy you precious time to redeploy forces that are near the objective to better respond to the enemy's plan of attack.

In a battle with normal daytime visibility, this is basically just a good way to have your units engaged early and defeated in detail.

Scott

[Commander]

You do gain advantages. Of course, the first is intelligence and the second is the GT mindset that using these kinds of tactics would put you into.

I have not played with German forces since I bought this game but have studied the capabilities of those units. My last 5000 point QB against the AI those German platoons with rocket launchers took out an M20 Scout, several Greyhounds and a Sherman 105. That royally irked me so I dropped a load of 105 artillery combined with several platoons of men and about 8 AFVs. Final result of the game - overwhelming victory for the allies 22 KIA versus the Germans losing with 272 KIA. They lost 13 AFV to my 8. Very satisfying and I want to try it again using GT.

[Joerg]

Hmmmm... this is not exactly what I would call GT.

<smartasslecture>

Being a guerilla means you're the underdog, outnumbered and outgunned, so the only way to inflict serious damage to your opponent is 1) to choose when and where to launch a limited, hit-and-run attack and 2) maximizing the element of surprise when doing it.

What you're talking about is placing troops ahead of your line of defense to scout and maybe ambush the attacker. I think this probably hasn't much to do with guerilla tactics, but is a standard tactic for every defender. The difference is that the attacker knows you're there and expecting an ambush, so it's no great surprise when things go BOOM.

Defending in CM means, sooner or later you'll have to slug it out, if you like it or not.

</smartasslecture>

Maybe it's just the choice of words...

Just my 0.1 cents,

Joerg

[Commander]

I agree with you Joerg under those circumstances. I am not sure as a defender that you could even consider using those kinds of tactics.

I was thinking more along the lines of a meeting engagement where you have plenty of room and plenty of time (not to mention a lot of forces to play with). Even then, I am not sure you could really call it guerilla tactics.

[Chad Harrison]

my favorite guerilla tactic is to get my men forward on a ME and hide them there. wait and wait and wait until someone stumbles upon them. this works best when they either did not see you move there or thats where you set them up. this morning on a PBEM ME, a vanilla ami rifle squad chewed up and spit out a full strength vetern sturmgruppe platoon in the woods! it takes patience, but pays off pretty darn good. i dont use this tactic a lot however.

[Louie the Toad]

Guerilla Tactics, shouldnt they be against enemy supply lines, communications, ammo dumps, HQ areas and the like?

None of these in CM.

I rest my case.

Rested Toad.

[Ryan Crierie]

Hmm, interesting.

I will have to try this

in my next game. Perhaps

a elite MG-42/Shreck/FJ

team transported in

Kubelwagens the long way?

You CAN recreate GT in CM...some

of Skorzeny's missions and exploits

come to mind....

[Michael Emrys]

Several things militate against using hit-and-run commando (we really aren't talking about much of anything having to do with true guerilla warfare here) tactics in CM. One is, as someone pointed out, there aren't any proper targets, LOC, C&C sites, etc. There's no tail in CM, just teeth.

Another thing is that it's hard to achieve and hold surprise. Absolute spotting means that once an enemy unit stumbles across your force, the whistle blows and he starts to organize to resist you.

All that said, I can think of some ways in which you might come close to simulating a guerilla or commando action.

The first is a raid against a C&C center. Set up a small village. Populate it with enemy units that are mostly conscript with low ammo. Begin the action with your troops either already in or near the village. Your mission is to kill or capture all the enemy units.

The second is an ambush of a convoy. A bunch of enemy trucks with some kind of armed escort has to exit a designated mapside. Make sure there is only one road they can travel to get there, all other terrain is impassable to vehicles. Place your troops and press GO!

Michael