JVril Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 I KNOW it sez "recommended as Red Army against AI" AND I guess I am a a zealot 'cos I only play the Germans...but after the following I just got to wonder. Scenario: "White wave", Moscow counteroffensive 1941. The remaining 180 men of a battered German battalion prepare to take on the feared White Coats of Siberia and make a stand in ****inkovo. Turn 2. Very heavy Russian artillery preparation starts. Men cry in mortal fear, buildings catch fire and explode and my two infantry guns are abandonded as the crews flee screaming into the winter night, stumbling on the mutilated corpses of the casualties of this merciless punishment. Turn 10. All grows silent. The walking wounded crawl out of the ruins and prepare to die where they stand; this is it - they will come now! The two MG's stationed in log cabins near the edge of the forest start sweating as they hear Russian voices in the darkness. (Gee, I think, the AI really is not stupid; this is how it should be!) Turn 10-25. Vasili comes gently strolling out of the forest. As he nears the cabin, Obg. Posner opens fire - and manages to jam the MG34 in his excitement -"Gott in Himmel, now I am done for!" But luckily Vasili just curses and crawls back just outside of the firing arc. Now, Vasili sits down and probably starts brewing a nice samovar of tea. Ilja joins in after a couple of turns and together they sit like rabbits in the snow chew the latest fat. Vladimir shows up, but he has to leave back to the woods shortly. Obg. Posner wonders what the hell is going on. By turn 20, a commissar apparently appears out of the frosty woods and together with Vasili and Ilja they decide they should maybe wage a little war or something. All three yell "Uraa" and step a couple of steps forward, only to be mown down by Obg.Posner's MG bursts. Zum Teufel, the MG jams again, but fortunately his pal from the next cabin joins in the serenade with his LMG. The commissar is left dead on the field as Vasili and Ilja decide they should maybe still wait a while and have a nice cuppa. Turn 31 (out of of 35+) some tactical genius from the Russian HQ arrives from the woods, and after having a cup of tea with the boys he decides they should maybe do some sort of a flanking maneuver to take the village. They walk some 20 meters to the left of the cabin and start to march on. It seems that also Vladimir has joined them again. Well, Posner is woken up from his sleep and does his morbid duty. OK, the battle ends, total victory, yawn. But what do you know! There were almost 1500 gung ho communists still in the woods. I wonder what they were doing? Obg. Posner was of course awarded a Ritterkreuz with swords and diamonds and oakleaves for keeping a Battalion of Russkis at bay with his (not-so-trusty) MG-42. Like, uh...I sure don't know all of the finesses of the AI system that has undoubtedly been painstakingly worked on, but as a layman, it just seems that even making the AI rush straight and mindlessly to the flags would create more interesting battles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Axe_ Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Please post a spoiler warning if you're going to get into scenario specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Play people, the AI is for practice. Send me the scenario setup and I'll show you what I mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 I don't think the spoilers matter, unless you manage to read the whole story in a split second. Nice to see that I'm not the only one to narrate a battle with screenshots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Axe_ Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Originally posted by Bone_Vulture: I don't think the spoilers matter, unless you manage to read the whole story in a split second. Nice to see that I'm not the only one to narrate a battle with screenshots. I respectfully disagree. I stay away from scenario discussions but it's a little hard to do with no spoiler warning and a vague subect title. The first thing I saw after clicking the post, since I didn't have to scroll, was "Turn 2. Very heavy Russian artillery preparation starts." Cheers, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone_Vulture Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Well, that's true. But I don't usually bother playing scenarios, so I don't care. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Originally posted by JVril: I KNOW it sez "recommended as Red Army against AI" ...Hmm, let me guess... The Author suggested to play this scenario from the soviet side because...aah...wait! *think* Oh, this is a hard one... *think more* ...because...*think even harder*... Yes! I got it! Because it's not too enjoyable from the german side? Yesss! Ha! Man, that was difficult. [wipes sweat from the forehead] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVril Posted October 26, 2002 Author Share Posted October 26, 2002 All just out of human curiosity, completely acknowledging that the AI scenario was meant to be played as the Russians, I do wonder how the AI works - is there some specific mechanics and priorities that can be attributed for a scenario -because unless not, the thing described above seems just plain weird. Unless the 1500 remaining Russkis were all kitchen staff. As for spoilers, the real spoiler is to try and play this as the Germans. Yeah, I know, "recommended to play as..."...but one could imagine it could at least be played, sort of. In CMBO I enjoyed many battles that I played against these recommendations...and if I remember correctly, some with CMBB, too. Maybe the AI now just has too much on his mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 If you play around with the editor you may be able to fiddle around with terrain and units enough to get the AI to mount a decent attack. In general terms you will want to give the computer attacker distinct "lanes" of scattered trees, and small flags to go for, and the tanks and other vehicles some roads. I think if you go through the scenario talk section you'll find some good information. Now, if you are tying to make a historical scenario, it may not be possible to tweek the thing enough to get the AI to respond properly and still have a scenario that reflects what you are trying to show. It is much easier to design a scenarion, IMHO, for A) Head o Head play, or computer defender. You really need to pay attention to the scenario designers comments. If you don;t care, and only want to play the German forces... well you'll need to probably find some human player then to take the Russians in those situations when they are attacking. Say more than 1/2 of the whole war I'd guess without too much though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Slightly off-topic but this was a darn funny read. Thanks very much! Cheers Nolloff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Originally posted by JVril: All just out of human curiosity, completely acknowledging that the AI scenario was meant to be played as the Russians, I do wonder how the AI works - is there some specific mechanics and priorities that can be attributed for a scenario -because unless not, the thing described above seems just plain weird. Unless the 1500 remaining Russkis were all kitchen staff. As for spoilers, the real spoiler is to try and play this as the Germans. Yeah, I know, "recommended to play as..."...but one could imagine it could at least be played, sort of. In CMBO I enjoyed many battles that I played against these recommendations...and if I remember correctly, some with CMBB, too. Maybe the AI now just has too much on his mind?from what i hear the 'strategic' ai hasn't changed from cmbo to cmbb... it was always terrible on the attack. are there any victory flags or is it an exit scenario? i know that the ai is particularly inept at attacking in exit scenarios... it seems if there were flags at least the ai would make some effort... unless of course it already controls some flags... in which case it might just sit there... so yes the ai needs some work on the attack so in the meantime i would recommend - germans or not - that you play as the attacker... one thing you could do if you don't pbem or tcpip would be to play 'hotseat' with yourself and just give the soviets some rudimentary group moves, then concentrate on the german side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVril Posted October 26, 2002 Author Share Posted October 26, 2002 Thanks, all valid points, Dirtweasel and Manchildstein. There was no exiting in the scenario, just the 5 or so flags scattered around the city. One thing that could explain it came to my mind: I fired 4 of my 20 artillery barrages blindly into the woods; there MIGHT have been some sort of a Soviet vehicle that got hit and blocked the road? Dunno if the Russians have any wheels in that one. As for playing hotseat with myself(!), uh, I'm not that schizo...just yet! Guess I should try to get into PBEM more; always been to impatient with this game in question. But isn't being a misanthrope what war gaming is all about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Some complain because "best played as" recommendations are lacking from some scenarios, and some try to play the exact opposite of these recommendations when they are in the briefing... and come here to complain about the results ! Looks like a no-win situation for scenario designers. The recommendation was there for this same reason you discovered yourself. Save your time and follow the signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Originally posted by JVril: As for spoilers, the real spoiler is to try and play this as the Germans. Yeah, I know, "recommended to play as..."...but one could imagine it could at least be played, sort of.Respectfully, you're wrong. Post a Spoiler Warning! Post a Spoiler Warning! Post a Spoiler Warning! Post a Spoiler Warning! Post a Spoiler Warning! Post a Spoiler Warning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVril Posted October 26, 2002 Author Share Posted October 26, 2002 My apologies, dear gentlemen. Some of you might consider my arguing the point a bit further also a spoiler. So I'll Post a Spoiler Warning! I'll Post a Spoiler Warning! SPOILER : : : : : : : : : : OK, I got over the disappointment of the last battle. As I play the scenarios in chronological order, enter "Popguns and Elefants". Briefing did't recommend any sides. Well, as the title suggests, playing as the Germans, I have three 37mm Paks and some battered grenadiers against KV's, T34's and a horde of infantry. What would initially seem to turn up to be a red fist in the face of the Teutonic New World Order was not exactly to be. The steel monsters rolled midway into the open field - and stayed there. What did the infantry do? For the duration of the 30-turn scenario, they were all frolic and skied back and forth in the field, some crawled in the snow and the others threw snowballs at each other. If the AI logic hasn't been changed from CMBO; I really don't know what it is? - The AI simply is not interested in capturing the flags anymore? -The Russian troops are so green that they panic even seeing their own guns and throw themselves into a manic fit and start crawling back and forth? -The AI is so considerate that it does anything it can to avoid unnecessary casualties (like the US general at Anzio...) -There's something wrong with the scenario design? -In CMBB, you should never try DEFENDING against the (Russian) AI? -In CMBB, some scenarios are just unplayable against AI but not all are mentioned? I mean, what could I do to entice the Red Army to come to me? Pretty please, Ivan? Come over here camerade, we have bread for you? What did I ever do to them? I admit that I shelled a few mortar rounds there, but that really didn't hurt that bad, did it? I wonder had they come if I had started shooting my "popguns" at the "elephants" at the range of 600 meters? After all, the Heer-doorknocker might have woken the guys asleep inside. Dunno what you think, but me is very sad and this never happened with CMBO and can you maybe consider this in a future patch too, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Thanks- it's always better to err on the side of putting a warning first... some ppl don't want to know the slightest thing about a scenario, it isn't fair to have that knowledge. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 re - Pop Guns, that is odd looking. Kind of a dance line thing or the a bunch of Lemmings. I'll play that one soon and let you know what happens. Right now I am playing 3 PBEM games plus Whitmann in the East. I always play the attacking side against the AI defender though, so I'd not notice the same thing you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVril Posted October 26, 2002 Author Share Posted October 26, 2002 "Lemmings" is exactly what I thought also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Originally posted by JVril: "Lemmings" is exactly what I thought also!Hey man you should be the official BFC AAR writer, I am laughing so hard the tears are falling. You are a funny guy, who cares about spoilers when you can get this kind of humor for free. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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