arty vs. morter

[Toran]

What are the tell-tale signs that there is an arty barrage coming vs. a morter someplace out of view and getting help from a spotter? I've heard you can see the shadows and hear planes dropping their payloads (although I'm still too new to see these things...), but how can I tell the difference between the big guns off-map and morters? Both leave big holes and throw my guys all over the place if on target...

Thanks

[Patgod]

morters tend to leave an almost straight line of holes leading up to your squad/gun.

[PiggDogg]

Toran,

The telltale sign of a upcoming arty barrage (as opposed to an on board mortar firing) is the single spotting round.

Usually, the spotting round lands somewhat in the area of the targeting point about 30 seconds (for smaller arty [75 & 81 mm]) to about 60 seconds (for larger arty [105 mm & larger]) before the true barrage arrives. :cool:

Cheers, Richard

[xerxes]

and if the spotting round makes a big hole the adroit and immediate use of the "withdraw" command will be appreciated by your virtual troops.

-marc

[Lah]

With off map artillery you hear it coming in with woooshing sounds, on map doesn't make that sound.

If huge artillery get on your nerves then agree to play by Fionn's rules.

I find little tricks can get the opponent to use up their artillery. SPLIT squads with an advancing platoon and move them into trees so your opponent thinks you just moved 2 platoons there.

Or do the same but pull your troops out by a hidden route and let your opponent pound away at nothing.

Play using deception leaving your opponent with a false idea of the battlefield and what is where. I often let them see a couple split squad platoons but keep the bulk of my infantry from view untill I'm sure most of the artillery is used up. Don't forget smoke to hide your movements too.

[YankeeDog]

I don't know for sure, but I think I just noticed something about OB mortars game I have in progress that can help identify their location. It seems that the closer the target is to the mortar, the tighter the range spread is. This makes sense if you think about the ballistics of mortar fire. If I'm right, if the range spread is unusually tight on incoming mortar rounds, you know that (1) it's an OB mortar firing at you, and (2) it's pretty close to the impact point of the rounds. Given that there's usually a limited number of places the mortar(s) could be hiding, in many situations this may help you identify exactly where the fire is coming from, and act accordingly.

[Skipper]

Yup. And you can tell the azymuth from the impact pattern. Alas, counter-battery fires don't pay in CM.

[YankeeDog]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Skipper:

Yup. And you can tell the azymuth from the impact pattern. Alas, counter-battery fires don't pay in CM.<hr></blockquote>

How so?? I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve with this game, but it would seem that if you manage to identify the location of a mortar early enough (before it's fired most of it's ammo load), taking it out would be a very good thing. In fact, I'm presently in just such a situation in a PBEM.

Knowledge from wiser heads is much appreciated. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by YankeeDog:

How so?? I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve with this game, but it would seem that if you manage to identify the location of a mortar early enough (before it's fired most of it's ammo load), taking it out would be a very good thing. In fact, I'm presently in just such a situation in a PBEM.

<hr></blockquote>

If there is a mortar battery out of LOS with a HQ spotting for it, you usually cannot hit it effectivly with your artillery or own mortars, because you don't have LOS to the enemy mortars. It might work, but it is a very ineffective way to use artillery.

In MEs, you will usually send a platoon over, which can overrun a mortar battery not behind an infantry screen (very often for placement and LOS reasons on part of the owner), or if it is behind an infantry screen, you still gain knowledge about the position of an enemy platoon plus a battery and you bind the enemy screening force in place.

On the attack, the best you can do is a Hummel or 105mm direct shot into the suspected position of the spotting HQ, which has a decent chance of hitting the mortars as well, especially if they are in/behind a house.

The tactics also depend on the somewhat artificial CMBO difference between British 3" and other on-map mortars.

The 3" mortars have a smaller crew and are therefore cheaper, but they are quite dangerous from their blast (a seriour threat to Pz IV class tanks) and their high ammo load.

So, for 81mm mortars it is usually quite desireable to overrun them with substancial forces, because their crew is worth 72 points when captured in full. The 3" mortars on the other hand are more important to knock out, but less important to run over. The 3" mortars are also more fragile, so artillery may be worth it sometimes. It never is for 81mm mortars.

[xerxes]

Against the brit 3" deployed as a mortar "park" (3+ mortars under one commander) counter battery fire is a very good choice (105s are good for this, but even 81mm will do the trick in a pinch). If you let the 3"'s play their game you will pay.

The german and american onboard mortars don't really have enough of an ammo load to make counterbattery fire worthwhile.

-marc

[Toran]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by xerxes:

The german and american onboard mortars don't really have enough of an ammo load to make counterbattery fire worthwhile.

-marc<hr></blockquote>

Counter-battery fire is my arty locking in on their morters then, or could it be either arty or my morters locking in? What you are saying by not using the german and american OB morters for counterbattery is that they are better utilized in an offensive mode against infantry, not to mop up the other morters, based on ammo load-out, right?

[xerxes]

Counter battery fire generally has to be from your FOs since your onboard mortars have to have LOS (or LOS though their commander). Well placed mortar parks won't be reachable by onboard mortars.

The german and ami mortars have a small ammo loadout so they aren't good targets for counterbattery fire.

[CombinedArms]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Toran:

...but how can I tell the difference between the big guns off-map and morters? Both leave big holes and throw my guys all over the place if on target...

<hr></blockquote>

Actually, most mortars--whether on-board or off-board--leave SMALLER holes, which is one way to identify them. You can often ride out an 81mm or smaller barrage--which are frightening at first because of the high rate of fire-- if your forces are under command and you HIDE them (keep their heads down) in fair to good cover. Often they suffer only minor casualties. If the shell holes are larger, you're getting 105mm or bigger and should scram if possible unless in heavy buildings. 155 or larger makes BIG holes and even heavy buildings may not protect you.

As someone above said, on-board mortars have a much tighter target pattern (which is why they're so effective at killing AT guns). If they're hammering your AT gun there's not much you can do but keep the gun in HQ command and hope it survives, but a squad can withdraw and make the mortars waste a whole turn worth of ammo--which may be half their ammo load. It's hard to kill mortars which are out of LOS but you CAN target likely sites for their FOs, such as tall buildings or clumps of trees on a rise with a good hiding place behind them. If you actually see a platoon HQ in a high place of observation that should be a priority target. You may actually kill an off-board FO as well. The obverse of this is to ALWAYS hide HQs that are spotting for mortars.