General_Petrovsky Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 While playing a PBEM battle I had a sound contact for light armor behind a group of trees. So I had my tank destroyer (a german one, open top, forget the name)sit patiently on the edge of the trees with clear line of sight down the side of the patch so if he drove around the corner he would be right in my sights. The next turn the sound contact drove around the corner right through my line of sight, and not only did my TD not see or target the vehicle the sound contact drove right up next to my TD, machine gunned them to abandonment then killed the crew. And all this happened without it ever being identified. It remained just a light armor sound contact and then just went on it's way. How did this happen? How did my guys not see the vehicle when I had clear line of sight where it drove through? What did I do wrong? or is this a bug? The TD was unbuttoned in case you're wondering. Please help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeWary Posted October 23, 2000 Share Posted October 23, 2000 General Sir, A sound contact is just that. I know when I hear a sound, especially out in the open, I cannot pinpoint where exactly the item is that made that sound unless I can see it. Your troops are the same. The sound contact is simply a guesstimate of where the sound came from, courtesy of your troops. It is very likely the tank was somewhere else (apparently it was if it snuck (is that a word?) up on you). I've seen sound contacts that were close to 60 meters off of the actual location of the enemy. Hope that helps, SIR! BeWary ------------------ "Liberty or Death?" Make it "Victory or Pretty Damned Badly Wounded", and I'm yours. - a prospective recruit during the American Revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 I have recently experienced the same odd sighting behaviour. While playing as the Germans , I had a Panther and a Mk 14 hiding in ambush along a lane of Bocage. They were about 200 meters from a T intersection (the allied advance would soon come to that intersection). Then I saw the sound contact graphic for an allied tank approach the intersection. Due to the Bocage bordered roads, there would have been no other approach possible for the tank (the time frame was *before* the bocage cutting rhinos had been attatched to allied tanks). Both of my tankers had perfect line of sights on the intersection and ambush markers in place. I watched the sound contact tanks (first tank had been joined by another) come to the intersection, stop, turn their turrets and start shooting. Both my Panther and Mk 14 were taken out in two shots. The next turn, my bailed crews spotted a firefly and and a m4 II (canadian). I was a bit miffed, to say the least. How could my tankers have not seen them tanks turn that durn corner? All experience levels were regular. (Clear day.) This actually happend a couple of times in this scenario (downloaded from the Canadian HQ website: Steel Fields). Very frustrating. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popper Posted October 24, 2000 Share Posted October 24, 2000 I have had the same problem when playing the Heinies. I had a KT hiding in ambush and had Cromwell after Cromwell sneak into LOS and pop shell after shell at me. The KT, simply refused to respond with anything but MG fire. When I tried to manually target, it gave me a red line that indicated sight blockage, but nothing (spare maybe a heavy air molecule) stood in the way. There was no difference in elevation, no smoke, no trees, and no other visual obstacles. As proof of that, the Cromwells fired a total of 12 shots before my KT even bothered to respond. This has got to be a bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackson44dday Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 It is just as Bewary said, a sound contact is what your troops hear, not see. That vehicle with a question mark on it is not even a vehicle at all. It is just a distant sound. So dint give your hopes up when trying to tarket and kill a vehicle with a question mark on it. More than likley your just shooting through air. ------------------ He who conquers the past, cammands the future, he who cammands the future, conquers the past. - Kane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackson44dday Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 sorry for the misspelled words. ------------------ He who conquers the past, cammands the future, he who cammands the future, conquers the past. - Kane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_Petrovsky Posted November 2, 2000 Author Share Posted November 2, 2000 No, I don't think some of you understand. It was a sound contact, but the gray truck was actually a scout car. It drove around the corner right in front of my TD's face, drove up right next to it, saw my TD, machine gunned it till they abadoned it then machine gunned the crew till they were dead. Now the scout car saw me perfectly. And even after it killed the crew it still appeared as the gray ? vehicle. Not until the next turn when it continued driving into my army's rear was it identified and I eventually smoked the SOB with a Puma. There's no excuse, I checked the area it drove through over and over for LOS 1 and 2 turns before this happened and it was all blue LOS, clear as day. My TD should have sighted the scout car the second it came around the corner of the woods, targeted and shot at it. Or if it was going to stay just a sound contact then it shouldn't have been able to see me. It drove within 15 meters of my TD stopped next to it, said hi, then hosed it and still remained just a sound contact. I don't care what you say, it's a bug and it's BS. The more I play the more of these unfair and annoying bugs I find. And when you have PBEM games that go on for a month it sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by General_Petrovsky: I don't care what you say, it's a bug and it's BS. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Then why bother asking? Seeya. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popper Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 I agree that there must be some kind of sighting bug. My situation was a little different, but equally frustrating. My Tiger was on a slight hilltop with clear los into a valley. As the Brits approached I could actually see them well enough to identify them as Sherman II's, Cromwells, and Churchills. The most frustrating part was that, despite my manually aiming, the los turned red just as I got w/in 1mm of the target. Apparently, there was an opaque air molecule between the enemy and my Tiger. Unfortunately for me, that air molecule must have only been opaque in one direction, because I still had 4 yellow lines pointed right at me from each of the targets. My Tiger didn't target for two whole turns and one of the Cromwell managed to hit both the turret mantle AND the gun. Deeply frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 Popper, is it possible that your Tiger was positioned such that it couldn't depress the gun barrel far enough down to target the Limey's? If you can set up the same situation again, try moving forward a bit and see if that makes a difference. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 CM doesn't model min/max gun depression, so it's not that. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CM doesn't model min/max gun depression, so it's not that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If this is true, then i can ride a tank up to the edge of a cliff and still target a unit who sits down on the base of the cliff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 Well, i did a little research on this. When a vehicle approaches to the very edge of the cliff (that is, how far game allows it to drive), vehicle takes about 45-50 degree angle: and therefore it can shoot very close to the base of cliff (but not at the very base). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 Hi all What Petrovsky and Popper have experienced might just be an example of bad luck. The reason your AFVs didn't target the enemies was that those weren't spotted. - Petrovsky's TD crew probably had their minds on something else until hell broke lose, and then they were too busy keeping their heads down to see what was shooting and where it were. - Popper experienced something similar, but his enemies were probably identified and observed by another unit than the AFV. The LOS problem is harder to explain. Perhaps the Cromwells popped smoke to hide behind, and you had the smoke graphics turned off? Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_Petrovsky Posted November 6, 2000 Author Share Posted November 6, 2000 Chupacabra: Don't take me the wrong way, The reason I brought this to the forum is to make you and the people at BTS aware of a probable bug. I'm not putting you guys down, this is a fantastic wargame, but it has bugs just like any other software. Here and there these little annoying bugs are exposed and this forum is a great place to identify them to you and BTS so they can be patched or fixed by the time CM 2 comes out in order to further improve our CM experience. I'm sorry if I seemed a tad irate in my earlier post, but it just seems that a lot of times when a bug is identified the moderators and people from BTS get very defensive and come up with excuses or say oh that's what would happen in real life. Nobody expects the game to be perfect, but that doesn't mean we can't improve it, and together the players and the designers can improve it very close to perfection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popper Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Well, the hill that I was on was very gradual. It certainly wasn't enough to justify any problems with gun depression. Even more annoyingly, my Tiger would "spot" an enemy tank for one or two seconds (just long enough for it to start moving its turret in the direction) and then, for no apparent reason, deselect it as a target. Every time it did so, it would return its gun back to center rather than waiting for the target to reappear. I was trying to make max use of my armor by angling it 15% front/side and couldn't seem to get my gun to center on them and stay centered. Maybe I just need to give Unt. Geller a gift certificate to Lasik or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 General, That is plain bull****. BTS has never gotten defensive over a bug, and is quite good about fixing the ones that are confirmed. When people come in with OPINIONS not based on FACT for the third or fourth time, then yes, patience can wear a little thin. As for your "bug"...did you save the file? What was the experience of the crew? At what point did the sound contact change? Was it night or fog settings? There are so many variables, you don't give enough information to base an opinion if it is a bug or not. You say it came around the corner. IT IS A SOUND CONTACT....it may not have even been there. Sound contacts are a guess of where the vehicle may be. Also, because you can't see it, doesn't mean it cannot see you. Popper, so you gave commands to the tank which over-rode the AI. Did you move, hunt, or rotate? Did you save a turn there? what happens if you DON'T give the tank a command? For the record, every bug I ever found and reported have been fixed. I never got an attitude from Charles or Steve, other then a thank you. Rune [This message has been edited by rune (edited 11-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 General_P, Without seeing it for myself its hard to say what happened. In your description of events it sure sounds like an unspotted enemy unit killed your TD (which are incredibly vulnerable to even small arms). The Sound Contact is at rough an approximation of the the direction and bearing to a enemy unit. It is by no means accurate nor it meant to be. You said it drove right up and Machinegunned your TD. Did you see tracers come from the grayed out contact or did you just hear the gunfire? This is an important issue and if you are sure you saw tracers than it could have been a bug (but one we have never heard or seen before). If you didn't see the tracers but heard the fire only then it was just a case of the Scout Car NOT being where you thought it was and no one seeing its actual position. You don't have this all saved by chance do you? Was this single play or PBEM? What version of the game were you playing? Madmatt [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 11-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_Petrovsky Posted November 7, 2000 Author Share Posted November 7, 2000 Maddmatt: It was during a PBEM game and I'm using the latest version (1.05 right?) I do have the movie and I'd be happy to send it to you, maybe even the movie file for the turn or two after as well. Because the gray sound contact continued on and then finally materialized into a scout car. The sound contact wasn't an approximate location of the vehicle is was the exact vehicle, but just appeared as a sound contact. Where do I send the file(s) so you can see what I mean. Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_Petrovsky Posted November 7, 2000 Author Share Posted November 7, 2000 yo rune, take it easy buddy!!! This is a GAME remember??? I'm not bad mouthing BTS or anyone else, but this one seems like a little more than bad luck. As far as all the other variables, the weather was clear and dry, daytime, I think the crew was Regular, maybe veteran, but I never thought troop quality had anything to do with spotting or lack of sight. I'd be happy to send you the movie file too, because explaining this is getting redundant and who knows maybe after someone else see's it they'll say it's normal. It just didn't make any sense. Try to imagine: I had a sound contact for light armor for like 2-3 turns behind a patch of trees. So I had my TD positioned on the other side of the patch just at the corner with a CLEAR LOS down the side of the patch of trees. Now we're talking about 50 meters tops from my TD to the corner of the patch of trees where I was thinking the contact might come around. Sure enough he drove around the corner as I anticipated, drove directly through my TD's LOS, right through his gun sights at less than 50 meters, remained a gray sound contact, drove right up next to my TD at about 15 meters and hosed me. All the while my TD did NOTHING, just sat there. And yes he was unbuttoned. If this is part of the game, it's part of the game, my bad, but it just doesn't make sense. ps. Rune this is an open forum for people to speak their opinions and minds, these opinions are going to vary so you shouldn't be cursing at me or anyone else on here. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you should talk like that. Have some respect for your fellow comrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 General, Be happy to look at the files. Send them to rune@pcc.net along with your password to view and have your opponent send his password to view. First off, a sound contact is a sound contact, no matter what it appears next to. It is a guess of the position and will remain a guess of the position until you properly ID it. Only when it changed to a properly ID vehicle will you really know its location. As for my comments, I stand by them. I also have an opinion and can express it. I didn't swear at you, rather i told you your quote "I'm sorry if I seemed a tad irate in my earlier post, but it just seems that a lot of times when a bug is identified the moderators and people from BTS get very defensive and come up with excuses or say oh that's what would happen in real life." is bull****. That is far from the truth. Bugs are fixed, BTS is responsive, and they have never ever come up with an excuse to cover up a bug. Show some respect for them, and maybe they will explain. Show some respect, you will get respect in turn. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckshyesh Posted November 8, 2000 Share Posted November 8, 2000 Maybe he was busy reading a letter from home. Dear Helmut, I hope you don't receive this at a bad time, but I've been sleeping with the MilkMan. He's not a great lover, but I get a free bottle of cream each morning. Don't let this distract you. I don't want you to fail to spot any AFVs in your LOS or misidentify any sound contacts. Love, Gert PS: Gunter, the MailMan, says "Hi" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Private Parts Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 Files on way [This message has been edited by Private Parts (edited 11-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted November 9, 2000 Share Posted November 9, 2000 Gen, Just send the files to rune (his address is above) and me at matt@battlefront.com and will will take a look. Certainly sounds odd. Make sure and include passwords from BOTH sides though. Thanks. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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