How to use StuGs and Survive

[Wilson]

Does anyone know how to use these tank hunters and survive?

I am sure that when used properly, a StuG can be very effective. Obviously not as effective as a Jagdpanther, but still effective.

What do I do to allow my StuG to survive. My StuGs seemed to get knocked out a lot.

[BloodyBucket]

Stay hull down, let enemy tanks come to your field of fire, have infantry nearby for protection, and reverse out of trouble.

[Commander]

Originally posted by Wilson:

Does anyone know how to use these tank hunters and survive?

I am sure that when used properly, a StuG can be very effective. Obviously not as effective as a Jagdpanther, but still effective.

What do I do to allow my StuG to survive. My StuGs seemed to get knocked out a lot.

I will tell you how to keep your Stugs alive. Drive them away from the battlefield. If you don't then my Stug killing buddies will get you for sure.

Face it. Your Stugs don't have a chance. Quit buying them. Go with Panthers. A Panther is a dangerous tank.

[CombinedArms]

Stugs were one of the most common AFVs on the West (and East) front and turn up in scenarios constantly, so becoming a Panther specialist won't help much if you're interested in learning to work with all the Axis equipment, or if you want to play historical scenarios successfully.

BloodyBucket has clearly outlined the correct technique in using them. Let me add a few facts and observations:

1. The StugIII is actually an assault gun, not a tank hunter--its original job was to aid in infantry assaults and earlier models had a short, low velocity 75mm howitzer, a bit better vs. infantry but not much good for hunting tanks. The StugIII has an upgraded gun, an excellent, long, high-velocity AT weapon (also 75mm) so it's good at killing tanks (can kill Pershings from the front), but it's better at shooting them from hull down positons at range, not at hunting them across the battlefield.

2. The StugIII has pretty good frontal armor--a Sherman 75 can kill it sometimes, but not every time. Maybe 30-40% of the shots will bounce at all but close range. The Stug's gun is more accurate at range and a good deal more deadly than the Sherman 75. So stand off and fire from a distance, present a small target from your hull down position, and try to hit the Sherman before it hits you.

3. Though its frontal armor's pretty good, the Stug's side armor is weak and it's particularly vulnerable to flank attacks because it also lacks a turret. So don't lead your attack with a Stug. In supporting an infantry attack, leave it behind in a overwatch position and fire at trouble when it appears. The same goes for defense. Stay hull down, fire at targets at range, and reverse away from trouble. On defense, plan your reverse-away routes before placing your Stugs.

4. Stugs function best in teams (this is true of most AFVs but particularly true of those without turrets.) If possible, use Stugs in pairs or more to multiply their firepower on hostile tanks and to provide flank protection in case of a side attack.

Stugs are cheaper than Shermans, have about equally good frontal armor, and a considerably better gun. If you can learn to maximize their advantages and minimize their weaknesses, they can be very effective.

[ November 21, 2002, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Wilson]

Yeah thanks for the replies.

Commander, StuGs were used a lot and are historical, expecially in support of Waffen and Heer line infantry.

Panthers were not so common. So I don't want to be gamey and use Panthers when I should be using StuGs.

Any other tips? I mean were these tanks historically this vulnerable? I suppose if there was no enemy armour it would be OK in this game. How did the StuGs historically fare against the standard Sherman with the 75 mm gun?

[Wilson]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

Stugs were one of the most common AFVs on the West (and East) front and turn up in scenarios constantly, so becoming a Panther specialist won't help much if you're interested in learning to work with all the Axis equipment, or if you want to play historical scenarios successfully.

BloodyBucket has clearly outlined the correct technique in using them. Let me add a few facts and observations:

1. The StugIII is actually an assault gun, not a tank hunter--its original job was to aid in infantry assaults and earlier models had a short, low velocity 75mm howitzer, a bit better vs. infantry but not much good for hunting tanks. The StugIII has an upgraded gun, an excellent, long, high-velocity AT weapon (also 75mm) so it's good at killing tanks (can kill Pershings from the front), but it's better at shooting them from hull down positons at range, not at hunting them across the battlefield.

2. The StugIII has pretty good frontal armor--a Sherman 75 can kill it sometimes, but not every time. Maybe 30-40% of the shots will bounce at all but close range. The Stug's gun is more accurate at range and a good deal more deadly than the Sherman 75. So stand off and fire from a distance, present a small target from your hull down position, and try to hit the Sherman before it hits you.

3. Though its frontal armor's pretty good, the Stug's side armor is weak and it's particularly vulnerable to flank attacks because it also lacks a turret. So don't lead your attack with a Stug. In supporting an infantry attack, leave it behind in a overwatch position and fire at trouble when it appears. The same goes for defense. Stay hull down, fire at targets at range, and reverse away from trouble. On defense, plan your reverse-away routes before placing your Stugs.

4. Stugs function best in teams (this is true of most AFVs but particularly true of those without turrets.) If possible, use Stugs in pairs or more to multiply their firepower on hostile tanks and to provide flank protection in case of a side attack.

Stugs are cheaper than Shermans, have about equally good frontal armor, and a considerably better gun. If you can learn to maximize their advantages and minimize their weaknesses, they can be very effective.

Thanks nice answer CombinedArms.

Are there any other secret tips you can give? I mean, I agree that this assault gun was very common. Panthers were used in spearhead panzer attacks, and only sometimes in the infantry support role.

I am a fan of this tank because it's historical.

Tell me also, in what way was the 75 mm gun superior to that of the Sherman? I would appreciate any further comment you could make.

Also, when you say it wasnt a tank destroyer I agree. I got that wrong. But what is the difference in the way tank destroyers were used? I mean, given that tank destroyers usually were turretless, were particular tactics used.

I.E. When you say "but it's better at shooting them from hull down positons at range, not at hunting them across the battlefield", what is the difference between these tactics, did tank hunters use both or just the latter. What does it mean to "hunt tanks accross the battlefield"? You know a lot about this so I appreciate your comments.

[ November 21, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Wilson ]

[Agua]

StuGs are my favorite vanilla German AFV in CMBO. I've had decent success with them. I think the biggest thing with them is to not move them a lot. I don't know how this is different from a lot of other tanks in CMBO, but just have them cover your inf and stay put until they just have to be moved. They're easy to get into hull down and like CA said, with the sloped armour, it seems like half the time the first hit by a sherm with a 75mm gun will bounce off the thing. I don't know what I do differently than you with Stugs, but if I'm playing a 1,000 - 1,500 pt QB ME, I'll be buying StuGs only.

[mike the wino2]

Originally posted by Commander

I will tell you how to keep your Stugs alive. Drive them away from the battlefield. If you don't then my Stug killing buddies will get you for sure.

Face it. Your Stugs don't have a chance. Quit buying them. Go with Panthers. A Panther is a dangerous tank.

Why limit yourself? I love throwing Stugs in the mix. Good for inf and any silly Allied armor that gets too close my uber-truppen.

Originally posted by Agua

StuGs are my favorite vanilla German AFV in CMBO. I've had decent success with them. I think the biggest thing with them is to not move them a lot. I don't know how this is different from a lot of other tanks in CMBO, but just have them cover your inf and stay put until they just have to be moved. They're easy to get into hull down and like CA said, with the sloped armour, it seems like half the time the first hit by a sherm with a 75mm gun will bounce off the thing.

I like at least 3 with overlapping arcs. This helps to protect from side shots. If you can get them all in hulldown positions w/ overlapping arcs of fire, then they really shine. In a wide open map...forget about it.

[CombinedArms]

Actually, the tactics for using the German tank hunters is really pretty close the tactics for the Stug (When I said the Stug shouldn't be used as a 'tank hunter,' I was thinking rather loosely of the American Hellcat, which is fast, lightly armored and has a turret, so it can move fluidly around the battlefield but was in American--and CM--parlance a tank destroyer.)

The tactical model for both Stugs and the German AFVs specifically known as tank hunters (that was the German term, though in practice they were better at lurking than hunting) is similar since they have similar characteristics--good guns, good to excellent sloped frontal armor, and no turrets:

1. Stay hulldown.

2. Fire at range.

3. Reverse out of danger.

Typically the German tankhunters have better frontal armor than the Stug, and that affects the way you manage them, but they all work in the same basic way. Doctrinally, the distinction between assault guns and tankhunters is the assualt guns (first seen early in the war) were for supporting infantry attacks and tank hunters (appearing later in the war when the German armor was being pushed back) had a defensive role and slightly better frontal armor for facing down tanks. But in practical terms, the actual situations you find them in and the tactics you use with them are quite similar. It was not at all unusual in real life nor a CM scenario to find an assault gun on defense or a tank hunter used in an attack.

[ November 22, 2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Wilson]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

Actually, the tactics for using the German tank hunters is really pretty close the tactics for the Stug (When I said the Stug shouldn't be used as a 'tank hunter,' I was thinking rather loosely of the American Hellcat, which is fast, lightly armored and has a turret, so it can move fluidly around the battlefield but was in American--and CM--parlance a tank destroyer.)

The tactical model for both Stugs and the German AFVs specifically known as tank hunters (that was the German term, though in practice they were better at lurking than hunting) is similar since they have similar characteristics--good guns, good to excellent sloped frontal armor, and no turrets:

1. Stay hulldown.

2. Fire at range.

3. Reverse out of danger.

Typically the German tankhunters have better frontal armor than the Stug, and that affects the way you manage them, but they all work in the same basic way. Doctrinally, the distinction between assault guns and tankhunters is the assualt guns (first seen early in the war) were for supporting infantry attacks and tank hunters (appearing later in the war when the German armor was being pushed back) had a defensive role and slightly better frontal armor for facing down tanks. But in practical terms, the actual situations you find them in and the tactics you use with them are quite similar. It was not at all unusual in real life nor a CM scenario to find an assault gun on defense or a tank hunter used in an attack.

Thanks for the info.

I played Chance Encounter as Germans on full realism.

I used my StuGs the way suggested. One of them I moved quickly to the far left of the German flank and turned it near the forest to shoot at the US from the side.

I won.

My 3 StuGs survived and I wasted all of the US tanks with them (not with the Pnzrshreks).

Now I can really respect this tank.

[Major Jerkov]

You cant afford to be neutral on a moving train.

[Danny Chung]

Orthodox deployment principles for StuGs called for inclusion of infantry to protect the StuGs from close-in enemy infantry attacks.

However, as usual, there were always exceptions and I gather, from reading a few books on StuGs, that on many occasions, StuG commanders found themselves being rushed to the front in a fire brigade role without supporting infantry.

I've read stories of StuGs being deployed to stop a major Soviet tank breakthrough at the front. So they rush off and try and do their best in stemming the attack.

Having a combined arms enemy attack on your StuGs will test your ability to command your StuGs and that is what I find extremely challenging (and fun to do).

[jgdpzr]

If you've played CMBB, you will discover where the Stug REALLY shines: combating Soviet tanks.

Why is the Stug more effective against Soviet tanks (mainly the T-34) than the Sherman? Because of the difference in the ammo used by the T-34 and the Sherman. The Russian 76 fired a blunt nosed AP round that worked well against sloped armor. However, it's effectiveness against face-hardened steel plate was not as great. Contrast this with the performance of the US 75. Having a ballistic cap, the round fired by this gun faired well against face hardened plate, but was not as effective against sloped RHA (rolled homogenous armor). So, what you see happening in these two games is that the gun of the vanilla sherman poses a considerable threat to the Stug, while the gun of the T-34 fairs much poorer.

Not surprisingly (because of the numbers produced), the Stug was credited with more tank kills than any other German AFV of the war. Similarly of no surprise, the greater number of these came in the East.

[Silvio Manuel]

I recall that in the Panzer Blitz booklet (was looking @ it the other day) it said that StuG comprised these (IIRC) %'s of total German AFV in the East:

1943 38%

1944 44%

1945 50%

or maybe it was 42/43/44 instead--?

Plus the used to be crewed by top-notch artillery troops, and that coupled w/ low silhouette, good gun etc. makes them lethal Commie tank killers.