Insufficient organic transport to mount units

[argie]

I think we are onto something: the real reason why the Germans take out the 50mm mortars from their TOE.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Ariel:

I think we are onto something: the real reason why the Germans take out the 50mm mortars from their TOE.

"No Adolf, I have told you a thousand times.. We CAN'T FIT THOSE MORTARS IN THE HALFTRACK.. and no I don't care if you've made yourself Supremeuebercommandeur des Armees it just won't fit! I'm taking of the TOE as of now, and I don't want to hear about them ever again you understand, it's bad enough that our troops are freezing in winter, dying althrough the year and we've hadn't had a strategic victory since you fired Erik.. there is no need to have three guys in each platoon running through the Tundra to keep up with our mechanised forces."

[Scots Gray mkII]

The problem is that the 251/10 has only been given a team carriage capacity wheras in reality it could carry the 7 man platoon HQ(including mortar)so maybe the vehicle needs patched to squad capacity.

Alternativly mount some squads on your supporting armour (thats the best solution I can come up with)

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Scots Gray mkII:

The problem is that the 251/10 has only been given a team carriage capacity wheras in reality it could carry the 7 man platoon HQ(including mortar)so maybe the vehicle needs patched to squad capacity.

Aha! I wondered about that but had no definite information. Yes, that sounds like the solution.

Michael

[FEBA]

Originally posted by Scots Gray mkII:

The problem is that the 251/10 has only been given a team carriage capacity wheras in reality it could carry the 7 man platoon HQ(including mortar)so maybe the vehicle needs patched to squad capacity.

That sounds like the solution. I posted in the "patch" thread a request that BFC take a look at changing the 251/10. Do you have any source that indicates the carrying capacity of the 251/10 ?

[Redwolf]

Spielberger's book about the German halftracks says

"crew of 6 men", which has the usual problem of not differenciating between actual crew and passengers.

He also has a photo from top. There is very few room, like for 6 men including the guncrew at the most. Giving this vehicle a capacity of driving crew + gun crew + 1 squad passengers is definitivly wrong.

However, Spielberger also notes that the 251/10 would always carry an AT rifle, which I think is what BFC tries to model with the team capacity.

However, even the HMG that it can take now is a realism strech and is too much, not too few.

[Michael Emrys]

Hmm. Okay, scotch that idea then. So how did the mortar team get around? I am frankly dubious about the idea of breaking it up to shoehorn the individuals into different tracks, though I suppose that absent a better solution it might have been done. I suppose as far as the game is concerned, we are just going to have to buy an extra vehicle.

Michael

[Chelt]

Could it be that the Germans chose light mortar men not for familiarity with the weapon, but for their athletic ability? Perhaps the game could give the mortar teams a high fitness rating, so that the three guys can dash alongside the speeding halftracks without winding themselves? When ordinary men tromp through mud and tire after a brief sprint, these chosen few heft their tube and baseplate and a few spare rounds and flit across the shell-torn fields like dragonflies above a pond?

Or maybe, if you didn't want quite so many extra halftracks, you could put the mortar teams together in one or two vehicles at Company level, or maybe with a FO or some attached support weapon.

I do know that according for the manuals for modern American mechanized units, mounted in the M113 and the Bradley, members of headquarters teams and fellows toting all sorts of odd weapons are scattered wherever there's a spare seat, just to keep the number of vehicles down.

[ October 21, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Trap One ]

[FEBA]

Thanks for the input redwolf. Back to the beginning.

It seems to me that this is a simulation problem trying to balance a macro reality (historical TOE vehicles can mount full platoon) with a micro reality (no more than X or so men can fit in a 1/2 track vehicle). The issue may come down to what is a better simulation:

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• 1) Let a panzer infantry platoon load into the actual vehicle count used by the wehrmacht and incorrectly increase the number of men allowed to mount in some vehicle(s).
  </font>
• 2) Prevent too many men from loading into a single vehicle and incorrectly prevent a panzer infantry platoon from operating in the way it was actually used by the wehrmacht.
  </font>

To me, choice 1 seems to have less impact on "degrading" reality and is thus a better simulation choice.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by FEBA:

Thanks for the input redwolf. Back to the beginning.

It seems to me that this is a simulation problem trying to balance a macro reality (historical TOE vehicles can mount full platoon) with a micro reality (no more than X or so men can fit in a 1/2 track vehicle). The issue may come down to what is a better simulation:

</font>

• 1) Let a panzer infantry platoon load into the actual vehicle count used by the wehrmacht and incorrectly increase the number of men allowed to mount in some vehicle(s).
  </font>
• 2) Prevent too many men from loading into a single vehicle and incorrectly prevent a panzer infantry platoon from operating in the way it was actually used by the wehrmacht.
  </font>

To me, choice 1 seems to have less impact on "degrading" reality and is thus a better simulation choice.

Yes.

As a side note, in CMBO we had that - IMHO - screwup around the 3" on-map mortar. It had a crew of three so that it could be loaded onto the universal carrier without exceeding the vehicle capacity of 5 men. In real life the 2 crewmen would leave the vehicle and operate the mortar.

For players things looked a bit differently. Noone cared for two men more or less on the stupid carrier, however the fact that the 3" mortar was extremly cheap and also had lots of ammo mattered a lot and it was one of top gamey units.

Now, I think the current issue is not as bad, however I learned the lesson that in doubt you should stretch the vehicle a little. It is very hard to exploit transport capacity to unbalance a game.