1941 - German tactics

[Arctarius]

Hello all - new here, nice to see yah.

Straight to the point now. How in gods name does germany in 1941 supposed to assault, attack, or win a meeting engagement versus the superior Russian armour? This question is in terms of a H2H game. I have been totally devastated twice now playing against my best friend (Im german, he's russian).

As well, the russians get more points to allocate towards armour - allowing him to purchase hordes of those nasty KV-1s and KV-2s (I hate those impregnable beasts).

Someone pls suggest to me some tactics to kick his measly arse just once! I beg of you!

Arctarius.

P.S. Mark IIIJ or H's or even stug IIIB or E's are NOT doing the trick (freakin pellet guns). - we also play with completely random weather and locations. - still love the game, no less.

[Chad Harrison]

Welcome to the forum! And more importantly, welcome to armored combat in the germans shoes. Honestly, I would much rather play with the german armor than the russian armor. How do you deal with the T34's and KV's? Simple, you shoot them in the turret, and you fire from a hull down position. The StuG series are especially effective once they get the 75mm L/43 and L/48 guns. The Marder's can be quite the killers also.

A bit of advice. Never go toe to toe with them. Hide behind hills, slopes, trees, whatever. Then when they are engaging your infantry and are buttoned up, then come out and play. Before you get the longer barreled 75mm guns, the 50mm L/60 will take out a T34 any day, a KV is better avoided

Good luck and experiment against the computer.

Chad Harrison

[catnip]

Arctarius,

I often wonder the same thing. With the Germans in 1941, the best tank they have is the PZ III class with the 50mm/L60. You can knock out the T-34 with this, but need to make a good shot. On the other hand, if the T-34 hits you anywhere your tank is dead. For the KV, just pray for a gun or track hit.

If you play a lot of 1941, you might want to ask him not to buy the KVs just to make the game a little more fair.

[Nippy]

History rears it's ugly head.

In real life the Soviets spread their tanks out peice meal among the infantry just like the French had in 1940...we all saw how that worked out.

I guess you are feeling the effects of what would have happened had the Soviets listened (and not exterminated) those Generals who advocated massive armor formations.

My only real sujestion is to buy a few 88's or 150 Howtizers and HTs to tow them with or tank Killing Air support (Ie bomb laden Stuka)

[Michael Emrys]

Arctarius, are you playing with Rarity on? If that's the case, he shouldn't be able to get many T-34s or KV-1s. It that doesn't do the trick, tell your friend that you insist on playing with historical forces, that would mostly be BTs and T-60s and suchlike in the early days.

Fact is, the Sovs didn't have many T-34s or KVs in the first year of the war. They mostly were stuck with obsolete or obsolescent types which obligingly died in droves.

But to be fair, you should then take historical forces for the Germans. These would consist mainly of the L/42 Pz IIIs and the Pz 38s along with a couple L/24 Pz IVs.

Michael

[ September 29, 2002, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[K_Tiger]

Originally posted by Nippy:

History rears it's ugly head.

In real life the Soviets spread their tanks out peice meal among the infantry just like the French had in 1940...we all saw how that worked out.

I guess you are feeling the effects of what would have happened had the Soviets listened (and not exterminated) those Generals who advocated massive armor formations.

My only real sujestion is to buy a few 88's or 150 Howtizers and HTs to tow them with or tank Killing Air support (Ie bomb laden Stuka)

I never got a 150mm inf gun with AP ammo in 41` but they are still able to immobilize a KV-1.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by K_Tiger:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

My only real sujestion is to buy a few 88's or 150 Howtizers and HTs to tow them with or tank Killing Air support (Ie bomb laden Stuka)

I never got a 150mm inf gun with AP ammo in 41` but they are still able to immobilize a KV-1.[/QB]</font>

[Andreas]

The 15cm sFH18 had a hollow charge round (15cm Gr Rot HL/A)that could get through 160mm of armour at any range - provided you hit the bugger. Rather unlikely beyond 500m. The 10,5cm lFH had a hollow charge round that could get through 80mm of armour (10cm Gr Rot HL/A) - it also had a real AT round (10cm PzGr) that could get through 52mm of armour at 500m. Again, hitting would be a serious challenge, since you would have to bracket the target beyond 500m - which means that you more likely than not lose the duel. Only the 10,5cm lFH can be bought on map, the 15cm sFH is not in the game.

The real killer was the 10cm K18, a cannon that fired a 10cm PzGr Rot and got through 100mm or 138mm of armour at 1,000m, depending on the charge used. It is also not in the game, but can best be modelled by either an 88 (in which case the 360° rotation is unrealistic), or a 75mm ATG, in which case the low nature of the gun is unrealistic, and it is not available in 1941. A combination of 10cm K18 and 88s saved the day for the advance GHQ of 1. PD at Rossienie, when a bunch of KVs came to visit.

[tools4fools]

I guess you were asking real early with the 75mm L/43 and the 50mm L60 not yet available for the Germans.

88 does the trick, even in a meeting engagement. Buy a transport too. When you see the map try to find a good position with long LOS for it. IF none, then load it during setup and dive it fast to a promising position. Unlimber it there and wait. Uses fast Panzers as bait. Let the heavies catch a glimpse of them every now and then - at such positions that his heavies will get into LOS of the 88 when he is trying to manouver into a position from where they can shoot the Panzers.

150mm IG was tried against KV-1 as well, range around 500m. Had no HC or AP shots. Full frontal hit to no damage on the tank :eek: But a near miss with the next shot beheaded the tank commander as he opened up the turret hatch to see who distured his nab

And mabe you want to play late 42 scenario for a change. Then he will be on the receiving end.

You got the first Tigers and Stug F/8 available then. Nothing I know of that can harm them really from the front on the Russian side. At least among the tanks. But there is a Russian 85mm AA gun as well...

[Old Dog]

Interesting how this discussion echoes the comments that came up when CM:BO came out as to how Allied units could best be used against the German uber-tanks.

- Old Dog

[Arctarius]

I just wrote a great AAR...and my internet goes kaput as soon as I try to post it. *sigh*

Oh well, thanks for all the tips. I think if a '41 battle ever arises again I will fore-go any tanks, and just get infantry, support (alot), and a boatload of arty. That will throw him off his rocker.

btw, I just fought a glorious battle against him, I still lost, but damn did my army group put up a bitter battle!

Arctarius

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Just a couple of quick tips against Soviet armor in 41.

First, mortars are your friend, along with any other arty or mg's to get them to button up. They can't see jack when they're buttoned.

Second, shoot and scoot is your friend. Use pause to get your armor to pop out and fire at different times, from different areas and you will do fine.