Killer ATRs?

[derb]

Is it my imagination or are Russian ATRs perhaps a little too powerful? Not as bad as .50 cals in CMBO but still quite lethal?

Possible spoiler alert - In the Wittman/Kursk scenario...

my halftracks were riddled with ATR hits. This time, at least, most of them did no damage (I assume the 12.7mm rounds have no HE charge!) but eventually all of them were KOed. My first objection is that it appeared (from memory) that the ATRs were able to hit from 200m or even further. Is this likely for a weapon without (I assume) telescopic sights? And 2) when the HTs did get knocked out I seem to remember not infrequent heavy passenger casualties. Shouldn't casualties be proportionate to the calibre of the weapon which did the KO? I would expect a halftrack KOed by a hit to the engine by an ATR to just grind peacefully to a halt and have its infantry climb out, grumbling, in an orderly, un-panicked fashion...

I haven't done any testing to make sure my impression of the effectiveness of ATRs is accurate. Has anyone else run across this?

[RSColonel_131st]

I dont know how good the ATR Round is. If it is indeed strong Tungsten, chances are that they penetrate the passenger compartment and bounce around inside.

As for range, why not...using a modern unscoped M-16 up to 200, 300 meters against infantry is not unrealistic, hitting a HT the size of a truck even less so. I'm not sure these rifles are unscoped, either.

Visit this link for more details (in german, though)

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Bilderseiten/panzerbuchsen-R.htm

It has pictures of german ATR's, here's a scoped one.

[First Mate Detrius]

Humm.

Just so that you guys know it... The Norwegian Army uses the 12,7 to knock out APC's.

Sure the Ammo is a lot more lethal now...but I should thing the armour has improved as well

Btw...when I say Our Army "uses" i offcourse mean "intend to use".

As you all know we have a policy of being taken totally by suprise when it comes to wars...

[ColumbusOHGamer]

Originally posted by First Mate Detrius:

Just so that you guys know it... The Norwegian Army uses the 12,7 to knock out APC's.

Sure the Ammo is a lot more lethal now...but I should thing the armour has improved as well

If you haven't played CMBO (or read any of the threads about the leathality of the .50cal (same as 12.7mm?), go search in that forum for 'hetzer and .50' and see what you get.

The .50cal (and 12.7mm???) will kill just about all the Axis light armour if they're short range and most likely will make them bail at up to medium range. A .50cal will even kill a Hetzer at point blank range if it hit the rear. At least that's how it was in CMBO...

COG

[Bimmer]

Hitting a man-sized target at 200m with iron sights from prone supported is not difficult, let alone a truck-sized vehicle. In fact, with quality ammunition a good marksman should be able to place his shots into the vitals of a vehicle and knock it out quickly. Even without specific targetting, if you put enough high velocity rounds through it eventually you'll hit something important. If the back is packed full of troops, chances are they're going to be hit in the process. ATRs seem about right to me - I think the problem is that tactics to counter them haven't yet been developed by many players, as ATRs were not used in CMBO.

[Terrapin]

I don't think 200M, even unscoped, is a big deal for a trained ATR, on a soft, big target like a truck. I can range off 200m out my window and I can definately see trucks coming down the road, and they ain't small! (Now...where'd I leave that fifty... 'kidding! )

Weirdly, I've had ATR's on full-AI mode that, after shooting up everything armored, started shooting at infantry at 300M. I've never seen that before, and he scored 3 kills. Usually they don't shoot at infantry (the ATR doesn't have a lot of rounds). This was on "Road of Life", as the Finns.

[Martin Rapier]

Originally posted by derb:

{snip}

eventually all of them were KOed. My first objection is that it appeared (from memory) that the ATRs were able to hit from 200m or even further. Is this likely for a weapon without (I assume) telescopic sights?

{snip}

IIRC Russian ATRs were effective up to 500m - bit better than the Boys ATR anyway!

It is bipod mounted a rifle firing a really high velocity round at an enormous great halftrack 200m away - I'd be more surprised if they missed it at that range.

Cheers

Martin

[Olle Petersson]

Let's see...

Accuracy: Some of the ATRs were used as base design for sniper rifles.

Power/penetration: Enough to cause the German army to put sideskirts on just about every AFV in the inventory.

'Nuff said?

Cheers

Olle

[Shifty 101]

I would expect a halftrack KOed by a hit to the engine by an ATR to just grind peacefully to a halt and have its infantry climb out, grumbling, in an orderly, un-panicked fashion...

Now I don't know about you, but if I was sitting in a halftrack that was being shot at by an ATR, watching the 12.7 mm bullets rip through my friends, I might be inclined to run out of the halftrack with my arms flailing wildly in the air, instead of calmly stepping out the back and grumbling to myself about how lousy it was that I had to now march. Just some food for thought.

[Guest Mike]

14.5mmm for Russian ATR's, and if they can go through 20-30mm of armour at range then why would they stop in a human body?

ATR's can inflict casualties on pasengers and crew without KO'ing vehicles - they do it all the time because the bullet is plenty big enuogh to kill a person even if it's too small to do damage to a vehicle a lot of the time!!

[ December 16, 2002, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[MikeyD]

The most common Russian ATR is a simple bolt action type. Bolt action rifles are often more accurate than the fancier types (no moving parts, recoiling breeches, etc.) and a very high powered round will have a pretty flat trajectory, reducing the need to compensate for range and drift. The U.S. easily uses their .50 cal sniper rifle (less powerful than the old Russian round) at ranges more than four times your 200m range.

By the way, in the past people on this site have usually complained about how ineffective the Russian ATRs are!

[ December 17, 2002, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Yggdrasill]

I have put round after through HTs without killing them, so I don't think the Russian ATRs are "too" effective, at least in terms of KOing vehicles.

They do have two great strengths, in my experience. First, they carry a lot of rounds, so they can fire for a good number of turns, buttoning up whatever they shoot at. Second, and perhaps even more important, they are incredibly hard to spot (not sure why this is the case). So they are relatively invulnerable.

I have had opponents waste ammo from 50 amd 75mm armed HTs, firing at where they guessed (incorrectly) the ATR rounds were coming from. In my opinion, the best thing to do about enemy ATRs is either to ignore them and focus on more available targets or to stay hidden. Trying to engage them if you can't see them is a waste of resources, especially if it's just one or two.