Where is the KV-1 m1942?

[Denizen]

Why was this tank left out of the game? It would use the same model as the existing KV-1 in the game, only revised data to represent the armor improvements would be necessary to include it in the game. Some 1,753 of them were built, seeing action until the end of the war, and playing an important role at kursk

Armor data is as follows:

turret front 120mm

turret side 120mm

turret rear 90mm

glacis 110mm

side upper hull 130mm

side lower hull 90mm

rear hull 75mm

top/bottom 30mm

See my other posts in this thread for more info

[ September 24, 2002, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Denizen ]

[Rickovich]

Aren't there several different kv1's in the game I've seen like 5 in different periods.It depends on force type in qb I think.Try looking in editor maybe.Been too busying lanning head to head to check out everything yet but I recall many diff kv models... :cool:

[Rickovich]

This is the armor rating for the IS2 which 3kish were produced which is far more then Kvs of all types,but not alot saw action.KV had 75mm armor in heaviest iteration.

[ September 24, 2002, 03:12 AM: Message edited by: Rickovich ]

[Denizen]

wrong, the KV-1 m1942 had stronger turret armor than than than any version of the Is-2, and it is absent from the game. Check Zaloga's Red Army Handbook for details.

[ September 24, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Denizen ]

[Denizen]

Ok... Since no one seems to care I will post some more information. According to TIm Bean's Russian Tanks of World War Two, as well as Zaloga's Red Armyy Handbook, 1,753 KV-1 tanks were built during 1942 in addition to the 780 KV-1S tanks built during that year. More example of the KV-1 m1942 were built than any other version of the KV-1, and yet CMBB models the more rare KV-1 m1941 of which 1,121 were built while leaving out the more common KV-1 m1942. As I stated previously, the m1942 was the best armored version, designed to survive hits from the German 75mm Kwk l/43 which was then makiong its first appearances.

[Dowarisch]

Hmmm with 1753 built this version should be hard to overlook, I´m gonna check the editor.

[Guest Mike]

IIRC the KV-1s was a reaction to the loss of mobility that up-armouring the KV-1 in 1942 resulted in. The up-armoured model was known as the KV-1e (ref The Russian Battlefield page on KV-1 - unfortunately it is erally only mentinoed in passing, as is the KV-1s for that matter.

Haven't got the game yet, but it'd be od dd if that model weren't there.

Of course in 1942 (early-ish) 120mm armour basis was gross over-survival!!

[MrSpkr]

Did you look under the cushions on the couch? I'm always finding things under those darned cushions . . .

[Denizen]

Mike you are correct that the KV-1S was built to correct the mobility issues of the KV-1 m1942, however the productions runs of the two tanks overlapped, and the KV-1S was generally considered more of a failure than the m1942, so production of the KV-1S was halted in 1943 after a total of 1,232 were built. (which was less than the total of the m1942, though both tanks would see use until the war's end)

[Denizen]

For additional clarification, The KV-1 m1942 was the replacement of the KV-1e (which is included in CMBB) The m1942 replaced the KV-1e bolt on armor with even thicker cast/welded armor.

[ September 24, 2002, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Denizen ]

[Denizen]

Am I the only person who wonders why this tank was omitted? :confused: The uparmored KV-1 m1942 was the most numerous of the KV series, I kid you not.

[ September 24, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Denizen ]

[Kwazydog]

Denizen, the reason it wasnt included was that from the best we could tell a KV-I 1942 model didnt exists.

We discussed this at length with out Russian contacts and they said that Zaloga must have mistook differences between KVs from various factories to be a brand new Model 1942, because here was actually no such thing.

This isnt suprising as there is much confusion even from book to book on Russian equipment, but the info we were provided was convincing.

Dan

[ September 24, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Denizen, the reason it wasnt included was that from the best we could tell a KV-I 1942 model didnt exists.

We discussed this at length with out Russian contacts and they said that Zaloga must have mistook differences between KVs from various factories to be a brand new Model 1942, because here was actually no such thing.

Dan

That's very interesting.

[Kwazydog]

We thought so too Andrew.

Bottom line is that there was a lot of cunfusion between the various models of the Russian vehicles, particually the KV's and T-34. A big part of the problem is that even different factories made the same vehicle using different methods so that even the same vehicle from two factories is not always identical.

It was really hard to work out what was what, but the Russians have put a lot of research into this and can even quote which vehicles were made in which factories and the minor differences between them, so we thought they probably had it correct

Dan

[ September 24, 2002, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Denizen]

Hmmm... interesting, apparently I may be trusting Zaloga too much. KwazyDog, assuming you are correct, what were KV facories producing from late 1941 to mid 1942? I'll keep my mouth shut until I can find some more reliable information.

[Guest Mike]

I've only ever heard them referred to as the -1A, -1B and -1s.

the "A" being het prewar version, the "B" being teh uparmoured version and we all know what hte "s" is.

The "e" to me is a new type but may be what I think of as the "B".

Quite frankly to me (a Russophile) it's not a great concern - as long as there IS an uparmoured verision!!

[Denizen]

I may have spoken too soon,

The Parola Tank museum in Finland cliams to have a preserved example of the "KV-1m 1942" :eek: :eek: check out the museum site: http://www.pp.htv.fi/jveijala/tankit/tank8.html

I believe this is the same tank pictured in Zaloga's New Vanguard KV-1 and -2 where the caption states: "in 1942 an up-armored cast turret was introduced with increased armor thickness. THis model is most easily distinguished by the added armor collar around the rear turret MG. The hull armor was also thickened leading to a change in rear shape, with a simple angled rear rather than the rounded rear used earlier. This KV-1 model 1942 is currently preserved at the Parola Tank Musuem in Finland"

[ September 24, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Denizen ]

[Kwazydog]

Denizen, Im pretty sure that vehicle is what we were recommended to call a 1941 model. Note the cast turret.

If you look at the stats you will see that these vehicles were indeed up-armoured and used a different method to make the turret (cast instead of welded).

Confusion as you can see . Check out this site for some more info on the KV series.

http://www.battlefield.ru/map.html

Dan

PS : Also note that they list the weight as 47 ton, which is that for the origional 40 model with less armour, so Im not sure that site can be trusted as being too accurate.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Denizen:

I may have spoken too soon,

The Parola Tank museum in Finland cliams to have a preserved example of the "KV-1m 1942" :eek: :eek: check out the museum site: http://www.pp.htv.fi/jveijala/tankit/tank8.html

Interestingly; the only picture of a KV-1 m. 1942 in Zaloga's "Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles of WWII" is the Parola tank. Zaloga's "Soviet Heavy Tanks" also has a plate of the same tank.

I don't really have any non-Zaloga stuff to compare this with, though.

[Denizen]

KwazyDog, I have visited the RBF to which you are refering me to for most of its existance. Valeriy Potapov the guy who runs it, copied much of his information from Zaloga's books, and in fact a complete passsage from Zaloga's New Vanguard T-34/85 can be found on that website. Don't tell me Valeriy is the guy who told you to think of the Parola as a KV-1 m1941!!

[Kwazydog]

Denizen, I probably worded that poorly. Basically I am saying that I think the Parola tank is what we call in game a KV-I 1941. It appears to be idential from what I can see.

I think the confusion comes about from the fact that in 1941 two types of KV-I were produced. One with a cast turret and another with a welded turret. The cast turret does indeed have thicker armour and started production slightly after the welded version *but* the Russians refer to both as a 1941 model.

Dan

[Denizen]

KwazyDog, if you saw the rear end of the KV-1 at Parola as is visible in a photograph on page 23 of Zaloga's book on the KV-1 and 2, you would see several differences between the game's "1941" model and what I am calling the 1942 model. Firs of all the curved rear armor was replaced by angular welded sheets of armor, and by the look of the photograph, Zaloga's figure of 75mm thickness of these plates looks to be correct. The turret, clearly shown in Zaloga's photograph, differs from the previous by being noticeably wider as well as having angular rear sides with curved corners, and the mounting of the rear turret mg is significanlt different than previous models.

[Kwazydog]

Denizen we have seen the differences. I think the point is that the guys we spoke to in Russian felt that this was either a 1941 model from a different factory or a modification instead of a completely different vehicle. For all we know this vehicle could have had the extra armour added to it by the Finns...I would put it past them

Once we looked into it some more, this did seem like it was the case. If we could find some more info on the KV-I 1942 we could look into it more but other than Zalogas reference there seems to be very little info about it. If you find some though, we are more than happy to look into it!

Dan

[ September 25, 2002, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]