Typical Russian and German Armoured Forces to be Expected Each Year

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But if their role was that of light recce - like, say, the Sd Kfz 222 Funkwagen - is their use really relevant to most CM scenarios? Was it really an infantry support vehicle by 1942?

The first TO&E that I can find that relegates it to pure recce is one of 7.PD dated 17th jan 1943, which gives each Abt. of PR 25 7 Pz II in the recce platoon. All companies are now either purely Pz III or Pz IV. I have posted the June 1941 TO&E that puts them into the line units, and I would argue that for the whole of 1941, it has to be seen as an MBT, although with a specialised role within the company. I am no TO&E grog, so I would be interested to see a 1942 TO&E.

[Zitadelle]

I would probably make a few amendments to the Russian listings, and I will primarily examine the role of the lighter vehicles produced by the auto factories: the T-60, T-70, and SU-76.

On the production lines, the T-60 was fully replaced by the T-70 in Spring, 1942 when the Russians realized that it was an under-strength and useless deathtrap. Up to that point nearly 6,000 of the little critters were produced. The T-60 was typically not in the TO&Es of Red Armored units beyond the end of 1942 (more commonly by Summer, 1942 they were phased out due to losses).

Production of the T-70 models continued until the end of 1942 (SU-76 production began the first of January, 1943). By 1943, the Red Army began to use the T-34/76 in the role of the T-70. However, units were still equipped with the T-70 through mid-1943 (they did appear during the Kursk battles).

In addition, I would add the SU-76 prior to 1945. This SPG was the second most common armored vehicle after the T-34 series in the Red Army. The auto factories that could not build the heavier tank hulls, built this little support beast (after the discontinuation of the T-60/70). Production began in January, 1943, and continued until the end of the war (2,000 in 1943, 7,000 in 1944, and 3,500 in 1945).

Finally I would include the SU-85 and SU100. The SU-85 first battle appearance was September, 1943 and it continued on the production lines until Spring of 1944 when it was replaced by the SU-100. Total production figures for both were about 2,000 and 1,600 respectively.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But if their role was that of light recce - like, say, the Sd Kfz 222 Funkwagen - is their use really relevant to most CM scenarios? Was it really an infantry support vehicle by 1942?

It is part of the Panzer Kompanie... a formation well within CMBB's capabilities to portray, so it is very much relevant.

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

I would probably make a few amendments to the Russian listings, and I will primarily examine the role of the lighter vehicles produced by the auto factories: the T-60, T-70, and SU-76.

. . .

In addition, I would add the SU-76 prior to 1945. This SPG was the second most common armored vehicle after the T-34 series in the Red Army. The auto factories that could not build the heavier tank hulls, built this little support beast (after the discontinuation of the T-60/70). Production began in January, 1943, and continued until the end of the war (2,000 in 1943, 7,000 in 1944, and 3,500 in 1945).

Finally I would include the SU-85 and SU100. The SU-85 first battle appearance was September, 1943 and it continued on the production lines until Spring of 1944 when it was replaced by the SU-100. Total production figures for both were about 2,000 and 1,600 respectively.

Thank you for the feedback Zitadelle! I will make the changes when I repost this information with the web links.

Any additional changes or information from anyone regarding the Eastern Front Armour?

Chad Harrison

[demoss]

It's probably worth noting that even after the Pz II is relegated to the recon role (apparently around end of '42?), it'll still probably be valuable in Operations, and possibly in meeting engagement/German advance type scenarios - though I'm not sure how many of those you'll see by then. Not all scenarios need to be pitched battles with already reconnoitered opposition.

I expect to see the Russian BA-64s and such used in similar roles later - though probably not as much.

[Guest Mike]

the T-70 and T-60 stayed in use loooong beyond their end production dates.

fro example on the Russian Battlefield there's a story of an armoured regiment and how it got it's first T34/85 - it captured it from the Hungarians :eek: .

It's 3 battalians were equipped with T70's, T34/76's and captured Hungarian armour!! (1 Bn of each).

I wonder if CMBB will let us reflect that?!!

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Mike:

I wonder if CMBB will let us reflect that?!!

So after you close assault the tanks with your troops and they crew abandones before the tank is KO'd, you could have a crew that abandoned one of your tanks occupy the tank!!

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Mike:

the T-70 and T-60 stayed in use loooong beyond their end production dates.

....

I would probably agree that it was common to have T-70s in TO&Es through the remainder of 1943; however, by 1944 I am sure that attrition was making them uncommon.

I would have to argue that the T-60 would not have been a common sight after 1942. The Russians realized how useless the tank was in combat, and production had ceased by early 1942. Moreover, T-60 losses from combat (especially with the losses during the Spring/Summer, 1942) and attrition would have definitely been adding up and without replacements it would have been rare to see units organized around the light tank.

Does anyone have any data on the organized use of the T-60 after the beginning of 1943?

[Guest Mike]

Oh I'm not suggesting that yuo'd see many T-60's in 1945!! lol BGut until the T-70 replaced them I'd suggest they would continue to form the majority of light tank company equipment until mid 1943.

Many surviving chassis were converted to SP katyushas, artillery tugs and other uses.

The T-60 wasn't really a death trap any more than, say the Universal Carrier or M-3 half tracks were.

It was completely unsuited for any form of armour-vs-armour warfare however, and so suffered when it was sent to fight asa "tank", instead of a light recce vehicle.

Of course in the dark days of 41-42 anything with a turret might be called upon to try to behave like a tank, and so it often got committed in situations where it shuold never have been.

this is one of the reasons specialised armour rarely performs well - too often it gets used according to what it looks like ratherthan what it is designed for - battlecruisers used as Battleships, recce tanks as MBT's, SPG's and Tank Destroyers as tanks, etc.

Sometimes such improvisations worked - often they didn't. With usual military ineptitude teh successes would often be trumpeted, and teh failures ignored!!

anyway - I don't think that captured vehicels were crewed "in battle" - but I wouldn't be surprised to find a Corps or army level workshop with expertise in maintaining them.

Of no particular relevance to this tread and some interest is that some IS-2's made their way to Vietnam to fight the French, who sent a Panther to counter them - but it got stuck in mud and abandoned!! lol

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Mike:

Oh I'm not suggesting that yuo'd see many T-60's in 1945!! lol BGut until the T-70 replaced them I'd suggest they would continue to form the majority of light tank company equipment until mid 1943.

....

The T-60 wasn't really a death trap any more than, say the Universal Carrier or M-3 half tracks were.

....

It was completely unsuited for any form of armour-vs-armour warfare however, and so suffered when it was sent to fight asa "tank", instead of a light recce vehicle.

Of course in the dark days of 41-42 anything with a turret might be called upon to try to behave like a tank, and so it often got committed in situations where it shuold never have been.

(Source _The Red Army Handbook: 1939-1945_, Steve Zaloga; multiple pages paraphrased).

No. The T-60 was not measurable in unit TO&Es into 1943. By analyzing the TO&E tables and Zaloga's textual discussions, a reader comes to the conclusion that the T-60 was not to be found in unit structures beyond the Summer of 1942. The T-60 is found in the Spring/Summer 1942 TO&Es- as defined by 'Nos 10/370-380 for the 1942 Tank Corps. And, even then the tank corps' organization is a combined T-60/70 deployment.

By the Fall of 1942 and the beginning of 1943, the light tank structures are primarily organized around the T-70. The light tank units in the 1943 Tank Brigade TO&E (Nos 10/270-277) use the T-70 for its small tank; no mention is made for the T-60.

Incidently, Zaloga makes the reference that the Russians were losing, "2,000-3,000 tanks a month during the mid-year, and only declining to about 1,000 per month for the rest of the year."

Furthermore, the Tank Brigade organizations that were initially formed in September, 1942 used T-70s for their organizations. By January, 1943 the Tank Brigades were dis-continuing use of the "less capable T-70 light tanks" and replacing them with the T-34.

And finally, for the independent tank units the light tanks were to be maintained in the TO&Es up to 1944. The T-60 was used through 1942 (in combination with the T-70); with the T-70 fully replacing it in the TO&E by 1943. "In February, 1944, the light tanks were dropped completely from the organization...."

As for production figures, in the Summer of 1942,

"...the little T-60 was dismissed as being nearly useless; its small 20mm gun and its thin armor made it a toothless death trap.... Although light tanks were not popular, the automotive plants manufacturing them could not produce medium tanks, so the T-60 was replaced by the slightly larger T-70 whice was armed with an inadequate, but better, 45mm gun."

Thereafter (as stated above), the T-70 production was ceased by January, 1943 and the automotive plants began manufacturing the SU-76; and the SU-76M starting in Spring, 1943. The T-60 and T-70 production lines were complete by the beginning of 1943.

[Chad Harrison]

Last call? I am going to put the guide together tonight and tomorrow.

Thanks for all the great information!

Chad

[Guest Mike]

well....as Zitadelle says, productino of T-70 tanks ceased in 1943, but they were still forming whole battalions of them in 1945 and at least 1 regiment of Hungarian tanks existed!!

Replacement plans existed for all sorts of equipment but it took time for them to come into effect, and sometimes (often??) there was simply insufficient numbers of teh new equipment to replace the old.

Official TOE's are not always a great place to seee what actually served, although they reflect what the ideal was supposed to be!

The Russian battlefield says that the last batch of 55 T-60's was sent to the front in January 1943 (55 tanks), while production ceased in August 1942 - 4164 tanks being produced in 1942.

It says that he last combat operation involving significant numbers of T-60's was the breakout from KLeningrad in January 1944. One tank brigade had 21, while another had 18 - so that's a battalion in each brigade - a light tank Bn in a tank brigade was a standard feature of Russian armour for most of the war because they never had enough T34's.

Note that this was usage as a battle tank - they continued in use for reconnaisance, scouting, escort, artilery tractors and commanders vehicles. they were not actually removed from service until the war ended.

Interestingly apparently 1 T-40 was in service with a tank brigade at that late date too - but that was truely exceptional!! lol The battalion it was in had only 10 tanks and was attached to the Volkov front - 2 T34/76's, 2 T-70's, 5 T-60's and the single T-40 made it up.

now I'm not suggestign that T-60's were over-running the battlefield, but I think they were a lot more common than people think for long after they ceased being produced.

The Russian battlefield page on them is here. I took the info above from both the development history and combat history pages.

[ August 29, 2002, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Chad Harrison]

Wow, the T60 and T70 seem to have been the hot topic of this thread. I will make sure that I include both of them. Thanks for all the input!

Chad

[Guest Mike]

he he he - good diplomacy there Chad!!

[tools4fools]

How about the Hetzer?

With around 3000 of the Marder series produced between mid-42 until May 44 and then from May 44 until May 45 around 2600 Hetzers produced, I could imagine that late in the war the Hetzer would be at least as common as the Marder.

[TSword]

Don't forget the Tiger I !

From 1943 on Tiger I was always where LAH, DR, Tot and GD were (Each had a company of it, GD's 13. cpy had become a full Tigerabteilung in Aug. 1943). LAH, DR & Tot and GD were in fact the firefighters of Army Group South and could be met at all major campaigns in the South from Start 1943 - April 1944 (edited) (were LAH, DR and Tot were completely exhausted, depleted and refitted in France) Kharkov, Kursk, Orel(Kutuzov), Mius, Kharkov(Rumiantsev) again, retreat to Dnjepr, Dnijestr and Romania (Targul Frumos). Btw all this formations also had received an establishment of Panthers in 1943 whereby GD had incorporated some of the Panthers D of Kursk (Abteilung 51) (subordinated during Kursk -> PzGroup Strachwitz).

Tiger Issued to Units (Jentz's Tiger Combat Tactics):

Dec 42: 34

Jan 43: 32

Feb 43: 32

Mar 43: 34

Apr 43: 35

May 43: 54

Jun 43: 46

Jul 43: 40

Aug 43: 75

Sep 43: 64

Oct 43: 44

Nov 43: 13

Dec 43: 118

Total 43: 621 (501, 503, LAH, Reich, GD, 502, Tot, 505, 504 506, 509)

A Tigerabteilung had a normal ordered strength of 45 Tanks. At average 50 % were operational.

There were certainly more Tigers available than the russians liked,.., SU122,ISU122 and JS-2 in fact were reactions to the german Super-heavy.

Greets

Daniel

[ August 30, 2002, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: TSword ]

[Chad Harrison]

Thanks TSword, I will include that information in my guide that I am making tonight.

[TSword]

Tanks and Tank Units on hand in the East 28. June 1942 (Source: German Panzer Tactics by C.C. Sharp):

1. PzDiv: 2 P2, 26 P3/short, 10 P38t, 7 P4/short, 4 PzBef

2. PzDiv: 22 P2, 20 P3/short, 33 P38t, 5 P4/short, 2 PzBef

3. PzDiv: 25 P2, 66 P3/shrt, 40 P3/L60, 21 P4/shrt, 12 P4/long, 0 PzBef

4. PzDiv: 13 P2, 28 P3/shrt, 5 P4/shrt, 2 PzBef

5. PzDiv: 26 P2, 55 P3/shrt, 13 P4/shrt, 9 PzBef

8. PzDiv: 1 P2, 65 P38t, 2 P4/shrt

11. PzDiv: 15 P2, 14 P3/s, 110 P3/L60, 1 P4/s, 12 P4/lng, 3 PzBef

12. PzDiv: 48 P3/s, 6 P4/s, 4 P4/l

13. PzDiv: 15 P2, 41 P3/s, 30 P3/l, 12 P4/s, 5 PzBef

14. PzDiv: 14 P2, 41 P3/s, 19 P3/l, 20 P4/s, 4 P4/l, 4 PzBef

16. PzDiv: 13 P2, 39 P3/s, 18 P3/l, 15 P4/s, 12 P4/l, 3 PzBef

17. PzDiv: 17 P2, 36 P3/s, 16 P4/s, 2 PzBef

18. PzDiv: 11 P2, 26 P3/s, 8 P4/s, 2 PzBef

19. PzDiv: 6 P2, 12 P3/s, 35 P38t, 4 P4/s

20. PzDiv: 8 P2, 20 P3/s, 39 P38t, 13 P4/s, 7 PzBef

22. PzDiv: 39 P2, 1 P3/s, 12 P3/l, 140 P38t, 15 P4/s, 15 P4/l

23. PzDiv: 27 P2, 50 P3/s, 34 P3/l, 17 P4/s, 10 P4/l

24. PzDiv: 32 P2, 54 P3/s, 56 P3/l, 20 P4/s, 12 P4/l, 7 PzBef

Totals: 308 P2, 615 P3/s, 380 P3/l, 322 P38t, 209 P4/s, 92 P4/l, 52 PzBef = 1978 tanks

Not included: Tankhunters, SlfPropArty and StuGs

(Spielberger):

1942 a Total of 828 StuG 40 (Ausf. F with long 7.5 cm Gun) were produced starting July 42.

Eastern Front 1942:

18.6.42 18 Abteilungen with 166 operational and 44 in repair

28.12.42 27 Abteilungen with 315 op and 127 in repair

1. July 1943 (Prior Kursk) (Sharp):

112 P2, 109 P3/s, 496 P3/l, 167 P3/75L24, 46 P4/s, 848 P4/l, 41 FlammPz, 110 PzBef = 1929

Not included: Tiger I, Panthers, Elefants, StuGs, SlfPropArty and Tankhunters

StuGs at 31.3.43: 20 Abteilungen with 443 pieces

30.6.43: 26 Abteilungen with 821 pieces

31.12.43: 39 Abteilungen with 1006 pieces

Panthers on the Eastern Front (Jentz):

31.7.43: 20 operational, 128 Total

31.8.43: 41 operational, 173 Total

30.9.43: 55 operational, 183 Total

31.10.43: 29 operational, 210 Total

30.11.43: 81 operational, 291 Total

31.12.43: 80 operational, 217 Total

29.2.44: 41 operational, 328 Total

20.4.44: 130 operational, 262 Total

31.5.44: 236 operational, 304 Total

15.9.44: 522 operational, 728 Total

31.10.44: 355 operational, 672 Total

30.12.44: 445 operational, 726 Total

15.3.45: 361 operational, 740 Total

Total numbers of Panthers sent ot Eastern Front (July 43- April 45): 3952

Note: After the war Commanders "confessed" that they regularly issued lower operational tankfigures than they actually had about 10-20 % and they mentioned that to have been standard procedure. Notorious for weapon hording (atleast at their introduction in 1943) were the SS-units LAH, DR and Tot which had guns and vehicles in their units which were not allowed acoording to Kriegstellennachweis (KstN) (In case of SS excess PzBef-tanks, AT-Guns and the like..). So how accurate above numbers are is open to discussion.

Greets

Daniel

[ August 30, 2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: TSword ]

[manchildstein (ii)]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

--Mark II--

But if their role was that of light recce - like, say, the Sd Kfz 222 Funkwagen - is their use really relevant to most CM scenarios? Was it really an infantry support vehicle by 1942?[/QB]

mark ii probably saw line combat early on. i look forward to mark ii, either as part of recon or as part of regular panzer battalion, taking on bt series....

[Chad Harrison]

I am now putting the finishing touches on my CMBB armored guide, should be up by tonight or tomorrow . . . just in time for the Demo!