tankboy74 Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 So is there ever going to be a recovery vehicle to push out stuck or bogged down vehicles. Or even an option to repair track with vehicles that get damaged "not due to enemy fire" I know from personal knowledge that a good tank crew can get a tank back on it's track in anywhere from 15 min to all day depending on the severity of the damage, and that a stuck tank by use of a log or another vehicle (to include another tank) could pull them free in a very short amount of time based on the experience of the crew. I guess you could say that I don't like leaving vehicles sit stuck in mud when a pull from it's wingman could get it free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Personally, I doubt you will ever see such a thing in this type of game. From my knowledge, these vehicles did not operate under fire. Perhaps there may have been the odd case of that happening, but I doubt you would be able to convince BFC that such a vehicle was used in this situation often enough to warrant inclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Repair and Recovery certainly is a part of combat operations but rarely at the tactical level like your normal Scenario or QB. Repair and Recovery is also modeled though in Operations where knocked out (but not burned up) vehicles will get removed from the battlefeild and possibly come back later on as a reinforcement. Those settings are selected by the Operation Designer. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankboy74 Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 All good points that I recognize...however, still, the individual crew self recovery and internal recovery with tow cables etc for bogged down vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Wildman Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Tankboy, As always BTS is open to new information. I can guarantee that the best way to get the option in is to show historical examples, of those kind of "unbogging" using another tank and tow lines happened in the 30 - 60 minute combat setting a Quick battle or scenario calls for. If you can show proof, either in doctrine or actual day-to-day use, BTS may very well incorporate that correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankboy74 Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 In this case proof might be more trouble than it's worth...I can only speak from real world experience doing "in-stride" recovery. Granted the characteristics of a modern M1A1 are considerably different from that of any of the WWII tanks (except the the King Tiger is damn near the same weight) and the individual vehicle's horsepower, weight, and other factors come in to play. I know a modern crew can recover a like vehicle (ie..an M1 to an M1) in about 5-10 minutes if they keep their tow cables in a "Combat" configuration...as the M4 has it's cable slung across it's front slope. I'm not looking for it in the quick battle or even really useful in any game under 15 turns, just putting it out there that instead of just sitting there for the rest of the game. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellros Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Would you really want the crew outside a perfectly good tank, right where any enemy mg can gun them down? I know if I saw what appeared to be a recovery attempt, I'd try to get a few shots off with something that might be in range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akdavis Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Bogged vehicles can become unbogged. Anything more is definitely out of the scope of a single battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 A couple of things to add fat to the fire. If such things as rendering assistance and taking a disabled AFV in tow while under fire did not occur, why was an explicit order forbidding such actions issued to the Panzer troops before the Kursk attack? This action would strongly imply that such things were pretty commonly done, absent orders to the contrary. Also, months back while at Borders I saw a good book in English on Panzers at War (don't recall title). It had some fascinating combat art in it, including what I first thought was a StuG towing a sibling while obviously under fire. Guess what? The presumed StuG doing the towing was actually an ARV based on a deturreted Panzer III chassis. I believe that an Iron Cross was awarded in the action depicted. From my limited reading, I have found multiple instances of functioning tanks taking their wounded fellows under tow or pushing them, and there are some exciting accounts of battles waged in the Western Desert while recovery crews worked under fire. Others describe skirmishes fought by recovery crew escorts from both sides while tanks were recovered at night after a daylong battle. I believe even cursory reading of Panzer unit battle diaries will show all kinds of things going on under fire we can't even do when there's none. Since I don't read Russian, I can't offer much help there, but I can say that Milsom's RUSSIAN TANKS 1900-1970 has many pictures of Soviet ARVs, often a deturreted tank with the opening plated over and a cupola on that cover plate. Russian Battlefield (www.battlefield.ru) has a nice shot of a pair of ATS artillery tractors recovering a T-34 from a ditch, but they're not under fire. There is probably a lot more there, but I haven't looked. Pinging Valera (one of the site principals) might prove most illuminating. All in all, I think this area would benefit greatly from scrutiny via historians and grogs alike. It occurs to me that the Finns, being armor poor, probably went to extremes to rescue their damaged vehicles even in the midst of battle. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardaukar Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Otto Carius (one of Tiger aces) says in his book "Tigers in the mud" that it was common to push bogged Tigers or failing to start ones with another Tiger to get them moving instead of towing them. That did minimize the possibility of crew casualties. Cheers, M.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacestick Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 If there is any doubt that BFC believed that ww2 tanks went into battle ready for quick recovery, a look at the splash screen for CMBO will dispell them. The shermans pictured have tow ropes fitted to their front bollards ready for a quick hookup. In practice ,it is also most likely that one vehicle per platoon would have a heavy duty slave lead ready for immediate use to slave start any vehicles that were suffering battery of generator problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankboy74 Posted October 10, 2002 Author Share Posted October 10, 2002 Since I've been paying attention to this...I noticed that live tanks push dead tanks out of the way when moving through restrictive areas... I've been trying to forcefully bog down a healthy tank in order to test if a live tank can push a stuck tank out. If this works it would be the best solution I can think of..Drive up, and shove it forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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