WolfLord Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 Well, a frequent TCP/IP opponent of mine finally blew up after losing tons of Inf and vehicles to rockets (artillery) in a few recent games and banned my (I was playing the Germans) use of rockets for all further games. No amount of explaining the historical accuracies of German rocket use would sway him. This lead me to play a few quick battles against the AI and test those rockets. My conclusion: to say they are effective is an understatement. Hell, if the Germans could have employed these (Nebelwerfers, etc) in mass quantities, there is no telling how the Ardennes Offensive would have come out. Anyone else on the board heavy rocket users and if so what are your views on the power of these weapons (concerning how they are modeled in CM)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stic.man Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 um, i just came from a qb....i had purchased 150mm rocket spotter....THE F'KCING SUCK! omg talk about innaccurate....jeez i had them all over the friggin map! they did more damage to my guys than to his. omg.... but maybe i did something wrong, gah! **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stic.man: i had purchased 150mm rocket spotter... talk about innaccurate... jeez i had them all over the friggin map! ... but maybe i did something wrong, gah!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps you had a too small map? I usually try to keep a safety distance of at least 500m between the aiming point for rockets and my troops. It's a bit close, I know, but better than nothing. I agree that 15cm rockets aren't that good though, since they have too little punch and don't do much damage anyway. That's probably why they're so cheap. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samhain Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 The one time I used off-map rockets, I experienced the same dangerous inaccuracy (i.e., some landed quite close to my troops despite calling in the strike at a distance that would be safe with regular arty). ------------------ I rode a tank, held a general's rank When the blitzkrieg raged, and the bodies stank. --Rolling Stones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 I find it safe to target area that is at least 400-450m from your own forces (that is, if spotter has LOS to target, if not - make it 600m) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 According to Lucas 'War on the Eastern Front', Nebelwerfer were deadly, even the 150mm ones, had a terrible effect on morale and were used as direct assault support. I was quite surprised by this statement as well. He backs it up with first-hand accounts and quite good research (from what I can tell) about the development and tactical employment. So no, I do not think that using them in a CM battle is gamey. Because of their long delay in responding, you will only be able to hit a static opponent anyway, and that is what they were used for. The most common one was the 150mm (apparently two batallions out of three in the standard brigade), and two of the larger versions were designed for use against fortifications. They have different characteristics (detonate underground instead of overground) which make them less useful against infantry. The devastating effect was created because they in effect produced an airburst (60cm above ground), due to the fact that the explosive load was situated in the rear of the rocket, behind the fuel, and the fuse was set on contact. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 I don't think Rockets in particular but artillery in general can be unbalancing in larger QBs if a lot is purchased. Artillery is effective and there is little to be done about it when playing a scenario. My opponents and I usually agree on a purchase/size limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grobdeutschland Posted December 19, 2000 Share Posted December 19, 2000 I also feel they're too inaccurate. But they seem to be modeled well in CM. I've read lots of WW2 books mentioning how deadly they were. Germanboy is right on the nose. One interesting aspect was the terrifying moaning sound they (nebelwerfer) made. According to Company Commander's author (Good book, if a little dry) Charles B. Macdonald, the GIs nicknamed them "Screaming Meemies". ------------------ "Far better it is To dare mighty things... Then to take rank with Those poor, timid spirits Who know neither Victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt 1899 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted December 20, 2000 Author Share Posted December 20, 2000 Hey, thanks all for clearing this up. I need to do more arty research it seems than constantly reading up on tanks BTW, I was using the 300mm rockets on my opponent...guess I can see now why he was a little annoyed. Maybe I can talk him into 150mm's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipmonkey Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Blessed be the 300mm rocket and the TRP. I've noticed that if you use a TRP, the rockets all land within the area of a standard wide arty strike, no more hitting your own troops on the other side of the map, they're delay is about 38 seconds, and they launch en mass, all 36 300mm rockets hit within 30 seconds. The perfect weapon to decimate/demoralize an entire rifle companies and soft vehicles or immobilize tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted December 22, 2000 Share Posted December 22, 2000 My jaw dropped the first time I saw the 300mm rockets in use! Wow! Unbalances the gameplay? Hell yes! That's what they were designed to do! Like using B-52s in Vietnam against Viet Cong. Sometimes life just isn't played fair. But if you're not careful the rockets can completely miss the enemy and a stray round wipe out half YOUR force (happened to me!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipmonkey Posted December 22, 2000 Share Posted December 22, 2000 I kno what you mean, I've lost squads, tanks and once their own spotter due to stray rockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samhain Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 I tried using the 300mm rockets once, and the accuracy was horrible. I tried again to experiment, and with a direct LOS, the spread pattern was around 600 x 400m, which is pretty worthless, unless there happened to be a whole battalion of infantry in the area. The main bombardment only lasted one turn, too, before the arty ran out. ------------------ I rode a tank, held a general's rank When the blitzkrieg raged, and the bodies stank. --Rolling Stones [This message has been edited by Samhain (edited 12-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted December 27, 2000 Share Posted December 27, 2000 I used the 300mm rockets once and only once. They are just too inaccurate. I hit my own troops and the enemy troops and I'm quite sure a lot of deer, squirrels, cows and chickens died all over the map! Everything I've seen/read about rockets indicates that were used as a preliminary softening up type of weapon before a major offensive (i.e. before your troops would make contact.) I think of them as strategic bombing not tactical support. I'm sure you can image what several batteries of them could do to someone's frontlines right before an attack. You probably need several batteries of rockets and LARGE map to really use them with historical accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 27, 2000 Share Posted December 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat: Everything I've seen/read about rockets indicates that were used as a preliminary softening up type of weapon before a major offensive (i.e. before your troops would make contact.) I think of them as strategic bombing not tactical support.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As I said, Lucas wrote in the late 70s that at least the 150mm were used as tactical support weapons. The 300mm most likely were anti-fortification weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted December 27, 2000 Share Posted December 27, 2000 Maybe Lucas' definition of tactical support includes a larger area then the typical CM map. With as few shots as they have and the scatter I just don't see them as a weapon flexible enough to be used in close combat, however I could see them used at longer ranges (500m +) to break up an attack. Either CM doesn't model them well or Lucas is thinking of them in different way. I guess I better read his book too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 27, 2000 Share Posted December 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat: however I could see them used at longer ranges (500m +) to break up an attack. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I guess that is what Lucas means - they would only be useful at larger battles (e.g. CMMC sized 2x2km maps). Good book, interesting info on background and employment of Nebelwerfer and Sturmartillerie (no skipping HE rounds though...) ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted December 28, 2000 Share Posted December 28, 2000 Actually, the 150mm rockets are quite useful, because theyr'e so cheap. Buy one, (regular skill level is fine) and on the first turn of a PBEM game, target the general area of your opponet's side. Of course, you won't be able to see any results, but the unexpected fire should rattle your opponet, and maybe cause him to change his advance. Besides, one lucky hit on an inf squad and they've paid for themselves. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted December 28, 2000 Share Posted December 28, 2000 Actually, the best way I've found to break an attack at the start is to have an FO way up front to target enemy infantry while they're trying to advance to contact with your troops. 120mm mortars are perfect for this and not too expensive. Totally screws up the enemy before he can even make contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted December 29, 2000 Share Posted December 29, 2000 300mm rockets are useful if you have a deep map, a broad front, and you're on the defensive. They may be as innacurate as hell but all it takes is one or two lucky hits to thoroughly demoralize the enemy and disable much of his transport before he reaches the front line. The difference between fighting with a switchblade and with a sledgehammer. Besides, they're cool to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 *****SPOILER******* * * * * ******************* Play "A Long Cold Day" to get a real feel for what Rockets can do. As well as the reasons given above, often rockets and heavy art were used defensively to wreak havoc on staging areas before an attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyStrike Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 It was stated above but to reiterate: Rockets + TRP = deadly! Since TRPs are only 10 points now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I/O Error Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 You guys ever seen the specs' on the United State's MLRS system? Imagine everything and everybody within two football-sized fields being killed and destroyed. Instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATguy Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 I find rockets too much money since they have low ammo counts. Yes they pack a wallop and it is fun to watch but if all you do is shred a platoon and maybe destroy a vehicle and he is still coming what then? those points might have better been used as 81mm mortar or something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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