Clarity

[JasonC]

So Priest, is it then the position of the party of the first part that in CMBO there is sniper fire generated by Scharfschuetze sniping with sniper rifles, but heavens! no snipers. If you like that usage of the term "sniper" I have no objection to your using it that way.

But if that is the hair being split, isn't it just faintly ridiculous that anyone who prefers that sniper fire generated by Scharfschuetze sniping with sniper rifles, implies snipers doing it, should be roundly browbeaten for his uninstructable ignorance?

It is not merely that another usage of the term is advanced as possible. No, it is insisted on. Not splitting the same hair the same way - which looks enourmously like not knowing the Elk's secret handshake, or some similarly obscure bit of inside baseball - is grounds for ridicule.

To be so stubborn as not to nod knowingly and say in unison, "oh course, kemosabe. Now I see the light. That hair must be split by all right-thinking people, lest the world cease to turn" - why, that is a sign of not mere ignorance, but a stupid refusal to be instructed. Quite deserving not merely of ridicule and browbeating, but of superior attitudes, appeals to authority, and scarcely veiled references to blackballing.

To which I am quite prepared to maintain that -

(1) The Emperor is naked. Nakkeed. Nakkkkeeeed. No clothes on. and

(2) You can call CM sharpshooters snipers or not call them snipers just as you jolly well please. and

(3) Anybody trying to tell you different - either way! - is an involuntary straight man of the highest order.

(4) Waiving any right to any such consideration myself, as a busybody in the whole affair, I yet maintain the original poster has been done an injustice. and

(5) Reserving the right to find collosally silly anything else he may have already, or may in the future say, I find his judgment that "of course" CM sharpshooters are snipers, perfectly intelligible.

[ June 14, 2002, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Priest]

Does being able to fix your toilet make you a plumber?

Does being able to change the oil in your car make you an ASE certified mechanic?

You can work a computer Jason, but can you put the letters MSE, CNA, CNE, or MCSE behind your name or on your resume?

I think not. So yes there were "trained" snipers in WWII. There were also sharpshooters who were not trained specifically to be snipers. Both of them "sniped" at the enemy. Sharpshooters are in the game, snipers are not.

And why we are at it, this is a non-arguement Jason as the creators of the game have already clearly and distinctly gave us the answer. They are not snipers. Go ahead bring it up with BTS, and once again be smacked down by the powers that be. At the very least it will be entertaining to watch.

[ June 15, 2002, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Priest ]

[Degus]

Any of you guys ever had a date with a real live girl? Geez..stop flaming Mustang and go get a life. Who gives a s**t about snipers anyway?

[Priest]

Actually I have a long standing girlfriend Degus. I believe you are looking for the Doom forums which are not at this site.

There are certain realities in life.

2+2 = 4

And there are no Snipers in CMBO.

You may deposit your apology on your way out.

[JasonC]

Your mission, Priest, should you choose to accept it:

(1) get a rifle with scope or without

(2) climb a tall building

(3) shoot at passers by below

(4) surrender to the authorities

(5) try to convince the press you were not a "sniper" but actually just a "sharpshooter" because you don't have a badge from a particular US army course.

Sniper is not a title, like Herr Doctor Professor. It means "one who snipes". Which means one who shoots at exposed people from a usually hidden position of vantage. Because sniper means this, the US army at present calls "snipers" those it trains to be good at it.

In the past, whole armies, and individuals in those armies have just as properly called "snipers" everyone shooting at exposed individuals from a typically hidden position of vantage.

I doubt very much that have the snipers of the wars in Yugoslavia ever passed a sniper training course, and if they did it wasn't anything like as rigorous as present US army sniper schools. But they killed a few hundred people apiece just the same.

Because truth be told, it is not passing a hard school course that makes for successful sniping, it is exposed targets doing other things without having the faintest idea where you are, and unable to reach you even if they knew roughly.

Priest can pretend that the whole world must mean by the term what he says they shall mean, but it is just pretending. The dictionary and common sense and ordinary usage and the actual soldiers of the day used the term in nothing like so restricted a manner, and there is no reason on this green earth why I or the original poster can't do so as well.

And we don't need Priest's approval, or Fionn's, or the US Army's, or BTS's, to do so. The meaning of words is not a matter of authorities, and if it were the only common authority in the matter would be the dictionary, which is against them. By continuing to insist otherwise, all they are doing is humorlessly insisting on ruling what we may call things. Which is pointless bad manners.

Since obviously the "party of the first part" haven't the sense to climb down off their ridiculous perch, I will now leave them there to enjoy the view.

[Priest]

Jason

Is there a distinct class of soldier called sniper? Is there? Is there specific training to be a sniper? You know there is. Jason there are many people who call a half track a tank too. Hell I know folks who call any boat with a gun a battleship and any boat with a helicopter an aircraft carrier! Are they right?

You see Jason that you can go and do whatever you want but in the literal sense in this case you are wrong.

And by the way let me get this straight, they snipe so they are snipers. Okay fine, since I cook then I must be chef. Your logic is ridiculous, the original post said that there were snipers in CMBO, they are wrong as are you.

Jason you know, you are like a computer, you spit out data just fine, but as soon you try to form an arguement or opinion you limitations keep creeping up on you.

Here is you mission, answer my question, since I cook am I a chef? Cmon I know you can do it!

[Japper]

Was just looking into this part of the forum for some tips and tricks (duh ), but after reading this post I have a tip for you all:

Let it rest!!!!!!!!!!

[Tarquelne]

Sniper is not a title, like Herr Doctor Professor. It means "one who snipes".

Guys, guys! That's the problem?

It's both.

The "sharpshooters" in the game are not meant to represent those men trained as infilitrate-and-shoot-people-outside-of-battle - ie, "Snipers." Instead they represent good shots with good rifles who "snipe" at people during a battle - ie, "snipers"... "sharpshooters." We all know this, right?

I think BTS likes "sharpshooter" because it doesn't imply all the behind-enemy-lines-sure-shot stuff wrapped up in the term "Sniper." (And maybe for "PC" reasons, I dunno.) They're just supposed to be good shots who do, lets face it, snipe. During the battle the act as a s-n-i-p-e-r.

If someone states that the game's sharpshooters are snipers I don't see the problem. It's true. You can just point out that there is a distinction between the "Sharpshooter" in the game and a full-blown, "I've got my certificate, the lapel pin, and a "I can see you!" mug." capital-S "Sniper".

Face it, sometimes language is ambiguous.

[Tarquelne]

Here is you mission, answer my question, since I cook am I a chef? Cmon I know you can do it![/QB]

An excellent word to examine.

From eb online:

Main Entry: chef

Pronunciation: 'shef

Function: noun

Etymology: French, short for chef de cuisine head of the kitchen

Date: 1826

1 : a skilled cook who manages the kitchen (as of a restaurant)

2 : COOK

So, yes, you're a chef. And yes, there are snipers in CMBO.

See - two meanings. One refering to the professional, one refering to someone how fills the same role, but in a limited or "amateur" capacity.

Is English your second language, Priest? (That was a "carping or snide attack - ie, a "snipe", btw.)

[YankeeDog]

Oh this is getting silly. Girls you're both pretty.

Speaking as one of the guilty parties in starting this whole fracas, I feel the responsibility to try to throw some water on the fire.

Of course if I take a scoped rifle up to a rooftop and open fire the news will call me a "sniper". So in one sense, this word usage is completely correct - the one man units armed with scoped 'sniper rifles' in CM can be referred to as "snipers".

In the same way, if a WWII small arms collector loses his marbles, takes an antique MP40 out into a public space and opens fire, I can assure you that the news will refer to the weapon used in the attack as a "machine gun", and perhaps even the man himself as a "machine gunner".

I work the auto show circuit; at the New York Auto show this year, the U.S. marines brought an LAV to show as part of thier recruitment booth. The press and news reports referred to the LAV as a "Tank".

The point is, none of these word usages is incorrect. Linguistic usage and meaning is not a hard and fast thing that can be pinned down with specificity for all situations and social groups. In general everyday usage, a (usually lone) gunman who shoots at people from a concealed position is a "sniper", any firearm that fires rounds in rapid succession when the trigger is held down is a "machine gun", and any military vehicle with armor and a gun is a "tank".

However, if is my guess that very few members of this forum would refer to an LAV as a "Tank". My guess is that most of us would define it as an "Armored Personnel Carrier", or and "APC". This is, admittedly, an unusual case - the LAV's 25mm gun and turret make it something of a hybrid, so many might use a more general like "Armored Fighting Vehicle" or "AFV". I wager that very few of us at this forum would use the word "tank" to describe an LAV, though. Most of us would probably reserve the term "tank" for a tracked vehicle with a larger main gun and without the ability to transport infantry in it's hull

I am also fairly confident that most of us on the forum would balk at calling the MP40 a "machine gun". Posters here would more likely use the word "submachine gun" or perhaps "machine pistol" and reserve the term "machine gun" for a larger caliber, usually crew-served firearm.

In the same vein, many of us here at the forum perfer the term "Sharpshooter" to describe the aforementioned units rather than "Sniper". Once again, many of us prefer to reserve the term "Sniper" for an an individual soldier specifically trained in infiltration tecniques, and generally used independent of larger unit actions to take out high-value targets with very accurate, long range rifle fire.

Languages, and English is no exception, often have multiple words that mean more or less the same thing. "Sharpshooter" and "Sniper" are two such words. As any linguistics professor will tell you, among a social group with common interests and backgound, word usage tends to become more specific, especially with words that define commonly discussed topics among a given social group. This serves a very important function - it makes communication more efficient by allowing a more specific message to be delivered using less words.

So, to my mind, "Submachine Gun", "APC", and "Sharpshooter" are more useful words to use when discussing the aforementioned topics because they are more specific and better convey my meaning. I will, however, understand what someone means if they use the terms "Machine Gun", "Tank", and "Sniper" in these contexts. Their meaning will be less clear to me, but it will still be understandable.

Respectfully,

YD

[arax3]

Fionn: Did you read that Gibberish from Steiner14? Why don't you try to help him? Perhaps he is beyond help. L3 :eek:

[Fionn]

Arax3,

Steiner 14? Sorry I don't understand the reference?

As to the rest.. I'll reply later... Sometime tomorrow. Right now I have something fun and RL to do .

[Mustang]

Jesus Christ.

This went to hell in a hurry.

I do feel guilty about this hole thing, becuse It stemmed off my post, but what to do? When Yankee Dog flamed me, I lost it and just flamed him right back. Now I go away for a little while and you all light into JasonC.

KNOCK IT OFF!!!

What I see is a bunch of idiot assholes squabbling over one word in the english language and making themselfs look like, well, assholes.

Further enhancing this image is the fact that you all latched on to JasonC after I left for a little bit. This makes you all bullies, after a fasion.

Now, to try and end this, I will clarify (goddamn, why did I have to name this thread Clarity?) what I meant in my origanal post.

All over the forums, I have seen people say that snipers were (oh, jezus) really sharpshooters, not capable of very skillfull shots. Thus, in the fourums around here, "Sniper" came to be a title not worthy of the "sharpshooters", the semi-skillfull ones, modeled in the game.

The game is modled, that is done. What I tried to say is that in the actuall war (Real Life, okay?) that snipers were indeed often quite skillfull.

There, that is done and I hope it settles the argument. Now the problem at hand:

Personally, I don't know what I put in my origanal post that incenced people to such a degree. Please tell me so I won't make this mistake again. But the real problem is that this was a flame war. A real flame war, and If this was the first one hereabouts, than I feel quite gilty for starting the thread, even though I should'nt, for this thread started off with an innocent enough post, but, like most flame wars, somebody made a honest mistake (in other words, Yankee Dog, I forgive you) I got rankled and fired back, than others just carried it away. The hostile attitude of the people in this thread is a bad indicator. I think part of it is becuse that many of you consider yourselfs (FION... AHEM!") Cock Of The Walk. I don't know what gave people the impression that I thought I was COTW in my first post, but the way others came down on me, like they knew everything, and there attitude seemed to speak: I am cock of the walk.... of course, I should not draw conclusins like this, becuse that is what (FION!) did.

This entire fracas is like a hurricane: When the conditons are right for too long, a storm is an un-avoidable certantiy.

So now I would like to stop this. Perhaps the forum admins might even see fit to delete this thread from the archives. It might be best.

Well, I will bow out again and see if everybody can just calm down and let it rest. If not, I hope the forum admins can take more desisive action.

[Moriarty]

Mustang, this is hardly a flame war ... it's more of a grog discussion. There are other forces at work here that have carried the discussion to new heights/depths.

At its most basic level, it is quibbling between common language (Cawley), which has built-in fudge room, and the precise, very specific meaning (Priest, Fionn) of the terms. Added to it are long-standing differences of opinion in some cases that have nothing whatever to do with you.

Both sides are correct relative to their positions. A sharpshooter does snipe and to Joe Sixpack is a sniper. But, a sniper nowadays carries with it a specific and very precise meaning, which was brought out by Fionn. To students of military history, organizations, etc., it is important to use the term in the confines of its specific and precise meaning.

[Fionn]

Mustang,

God help you if you ever get involved in a grog discussion. This is nothing.

Also, I'll point out that in game design etc exactness IS required. A Hetzer had 60mm of armour on its front hull. It was not designed a having 65mm or 42mm. It had 60mm. THAT exactness is crucial when attempting to model it.

The sniper/sharpshooter issue is important since the board view that sharpshooters are snipers is, inevitably, going to lead to people claiming that sharpshooters are modelled incorrectly because they do NOT have all the capabilities and characteristics of real snipers.

These people would, of course, be correct re: the capabilities etc since the fatal flaw in their argument would lie in equating sharpshooter with sniper. There have been threads, originating from this misunderstanding, bemoaning sharpshooter performance in the past and therefore it IS worth clearing up.

As re: skill levels.

SNIPERS were incredibly skillful. Not just in placing shots on target but also in gathering intel, sketching enemy positions before an attack etc.

Sharpshooters were often very good shots... Sometimes as good as fully trained and qualified snipers. They did not, however, have the full skillset of a sniper AND were not utilised in the same tactical manner.

As to it being a flamewar.. No, disparagements were aimed at those disagreeing with Cawley ( as usual), some people got a bit hot under the collar about you etc but this wasn't a full-scale flame war.

Anyways, it seems clear you're not interested in avoiding mud-slinging yourself so I'll bow out. I make mistakes, it is a pity that some around here are so infallible that they can't even listen to disagreement without name-calling. Oh and Mustang, you know sweet FA about me. You can't even spell my name correctly.

Moriarty,

IMO no fudge room is needed if you simply accept that what JasonC terms "sniper" is ANYONE who fires a rifle without being spotted and that people who do that can be divided into 3 categories ( amateurs who try their luck, sharpshooters and snipers). Everyone who is a "sniper" under Cawley's definition will fit into one of the definitions above. What's more those definitions actually allow more discrimination and are more accurate re: TO&E etc than the catch-all "vets called them this so we'll call them this" "definition".

Anyways, as usual, it just comes down to name-calling. I disagree with Cawley so I am a .... and a .... etc. I pointed out flaws in Mustang's post so he shoots too.

Sadly it is all too predictable and I'll leave the thread. It isn't worth the hassle. Enjoy yourselves.

[Priest]

I think I am going to choose the high ground with Fionn on this one. Jason do whatever you want just realize that your views would be an insult to true snipers. I know one, he would be insulted by your views that anyone could be a sniper. A shooter yes not a sniper.

Lastly Pillar, most Sherman crews claimed everything was a Tiger also. What is your point? Just like a boat with a mounted gun is not a battleship, a man with a scoped rifle is not a sniper.

Have fun in your unreality. So Fionn did you get that file from 'Gaunt?

[Priest]

One last tidbit!

The unreality part was for Jason not you Pillar, and to be honest from strictly scholastic point of view I could care less what WWII vets called them, no disrespect my grandfather is a vet, but they also called PIVs "Tigers" all the time. Try justifying that in a thread!

[Michael Emrys]

I've got a question. If we are going to debase the term 'sniper' by applying it to anybody who decides to take a potshot at somebody else, what word are we going to use to designate those soldiers with the full skillset of stealth, intelligence to determine and identify worthwhile targets, and patient stalking to nail same, as well as a high order of marksmanship?

Michael

[zukkov]

i have to ask the question. if snipers(in this case i'm talking about fionn's definition) were modelled in the game, how would they differ from the sharpshooter units now modelled? more accuracy? increased ability to id enemy units(especially officers)? better stealth? ability to infiltrate enemy positions without being spotted? perhaps scenario designers could put 1 or 2 in an enemy held town with the idea they had infiltrated the night before an attack. hmmmmmm....

[Patgod]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I've got a question. If we are going to debase the term 'sniper' by applying it to anybody who decides to take a potshot at somebody else, what word are we going to use to designate those soldiers with the full skillset of stealth, intelligence to determine and identify worthwhile targets, and patient stalking to nail same, as well as a high order of marksmanship?

Michael

School Trained Sniper

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by zukkov:

i have to ask the question. if snipers(in this case i'm talking about fionn's definition) were modelled in the game, how would they differ from the sharpshooter units now modelled? more accuracy? increased ability to id enemy units(especially officers)? better stealth? ability to infiltrate enemy positions without being spotted? perhaps scenario designers could put 1 or 2 in an enemy held town with the idea they had infiltrated the night before an attack. hmmmmmm....

Except the kind of Snipers we are talking about now would not normally be found anywhere near the kind of firefight that CM models. They would be in a quiet area (perhaps bahind enemy lines) where no-one would be expecting much in the way of danger. I realize that you may think that is what you have posited in your scenario, but that's not what I mean. When I say a quiet area, I don't mean one where an attack is going in a few hours later.

Snipers were like partisans in that they operated best where they were least expected, mainly in the logistic zone of an army. Near the front, where there were a lot of heavily armed, well-organized and alert guys running around was not their preferred environment.

Sharpshooters, on the other hand, were an integral part of platoons or companies, doing happily just what they do in CM: plinking at officers and NCOs in the line or crew of critical weapons. They may not have scored a great many kills, because their targets were taking defensive measures of being under cover or keeping moving, but they could prove a serious distraction and act to suppress the effectiveness of the troops they were opposing. As such, they were acting as a force multiplier of the company.

Michael

[ June 16, 2002, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Patgod:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I've got a question. If we are going to debase the term 'sniper' by applying it to anybody who decides to take a potshot at somebody else, what word are we going to use to designate those soldiers with the full skillset of stealth, intelligence to determine and identify worthwhile targets, and patient stalking to nail same, as well as a high order of marksmanship?

Michael

School Trained Sniper</font>

[Mustang]

First Things First:

Fion... Foin... Fionnn....Fion. When you do something deserving of my respect, I will spell your name correctly.

The sniper/sharpshooter issue is important since the board view that sharpshooters are snipers is, inevitably, going to lead to people claiming that sharpshooters are modelled incorrectly because they do NOT have all the capabilities and characteristics of real snipers.

These people would, of course, be correct re: the capabilities etc since the fatal flaw in their argument would lie in equating sharpshooter with sniper. There have been threads, originating from this misunderstanding, bemoaning sharpshooter performance in the past and therefore it IS worth clearing up.

As re: skill levels.

SNIPERS were incredibly skillful. Not just in placing shots on target but also in gathering intel, sketching enemy positions before an attack etc.

Thank you for re-capping all that I origanally tried to point out.

Listen up:

Snipers were all over in the second World War. Most were chosen for there scores on the rifle range from Basic Training. Many did not recive detailed instruction, but nevertheless had the neccacary skills to give modern, trained snipers a run for there money. Twords the middle and end of the war, dedicated sniper schools were established in the states. As a matter of fact, there were trained and dedicated snipers ready (in very small numbers) before D-day! I have read hundreds of first-hand accounts written by snipers, and they WERE modled incorrectly by BTS. Like Pillar said, a sharpshooter was part of his platoon. As a matter of fact, a sharpshooter usually did not have a scoped rifle... it was just his G.I. issue rifle and he was good with it. As a rule, if you could not hit a target at 600 meters with a scoped rifle, you were not issued a sniper rifle. Most sniper rifles were genral issue rifles: A WW11 sprinfeild rifle with a scope, and even more common was a M1-D, a M-1 with scope, rubber cheekpad, flash suppressor, and a trigger tweaked to break cleanly. They were exellent firearms, they needed little more modifacation beyond a scope to make them dependable.

Now, these snipers were all over during a firefight. If you were advancing through a city and a lone shot rang out, the call would go up: "SNIPER UP!" They were damned good enough to hit anything at 1000 meters. So, yes they were modled incorrectly. If you dissagree, go get a book called "One shot, One Kill." It has firsthand accounts from many WW11 snipers.

[Psyched]

Mustang

Why don't you just "bow out" like you said you would yesterday? It's just inflaming the situation. When are we going to get back to TIPS AND TRICKS, anyway?

I don't know if your points are right or wrong, but what I do know is that I don't care any more.

Why? Because I find the way you present yourself offensive. I am just a Junior Member (as are you, should you need reminding), so I have no axes to grind. Your use of expletives is completely unnecessary and makes you look immature. Insulting veterans of CMBO is plain foolish and results in any valid points you might have being dimissed without serious consideration. That is simply no way to earn anybody's respect. Your gross misspellings would be comical if they were intentional, but sadly they appear not to be. Frankly, they make you look silly.

I have been helped in past posts by every single Member who has responded in this thread, including Pillar, JasonC, Priest, YD, and Fionn. I have respect for them all, and that should be the spirit of this board.

I hope we get back to that soon.

"I'm always willing to learn, but sometimes I don't like to be taught"

--Winston Churchill

[willbell]

Re: Original post. Can someone send me info on WW11?

I have only gotten as far as WWI and WWII, I guess the other nine big ones got past me.