Breakthrough Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 Nice sight Botto. A fair and honest view of the Italian experience in WW II. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
British Tommy Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Mr Furious, I see by the tone of your message that you haven't studied the war in the desert May I suggest you get a few books out and start reading them! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Furious Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Originally posted by British Tommy: Mr Furious, I see by the tone of your message that you haven't studied the war in the desert May I suggest you get a few books out and start reading them! Okay deal, but you get some reading glasses so that the wink, grin and evil stirring laugh at the end of that post don't escape your sight,like they obviously did. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
British Tommy Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 trouble is mate, far too many people have this view on the Italian forces during WW2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Originally posted by Mr Furious: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by British Tommy: Mr Furious, I see by the tone of your message that you haven't studied the war in the desert May I suggest you get a few books out and start reading them! Okay deal, but you get some reading glasses so that the wink, grin and evil stirring laugh at the end of that post don't escape your sight,like they obviously did. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Originally posted by Terence: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr Furious: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by British Tommy: Mr Furious, I see by the tone of your message that you haven't studied the war in the desert May I suggest you get a few books out and start reading them! Okay deal, but you get some reading glasses so that the wink, grin and evil stirring laugh at the end of that post don't escape your sight,like they obviously did. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Schieben Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Well now, that must be the first British (?) comment I've heard defending the prowess of the Eyties (If you want polical correctness, wargaming may not be a suitable hobby). I think the Germans may have had some less flattering remarks. Perhaps I'll eat my words, when I get trounced playing the Commonwealth, by the blackshirts in a QB Thereagain, I was brought up on the Hotspur and Victor, which were boys' magazines back in England, and they portrayed the Spaghettis in North Africa in a very derogatory, but funny, light. Think of opera, buffoonery, and extreme cowardice. I believe these publications were even more cruel in their portrayal of the Japanese soldier(or Nips as they called them). Their rifles were always twice as tall as the soldier. John Lennon glasses and buckteeth always completed the picture. Surprisingly, morals aside, I don't give a toss about their uniforms, stains or not. I don't typically zoom in when in retrograde movement, especially if they're my troops. Worth a chuckle indead. Haw haw! <G> note smilicon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
British Tommy Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 You are indeed correct sir about the 'British' part! Like you, I was also brought up on those comics (ah, the memories!).Later in life I started reading up on the desert battles and bit by bit I grew to understand why the Italians gave up in such large numbers.Most of the reasons have already been mentioned. I for one would not sit in a lightly armoured tank, armed with an inferior gun and go out and face tanks that were far superior to mine! :eek: I did read somewhere that Rommel praised the bravery of the Italian soldier but it's leadership.... On a brighter note, I hope to see the 90mm A\A gun plus a few other bits and peices in CMAK Alas, at the moment I'm still waiting for CMAK to arrive 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 would you die for Il Duce? them either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Ignoring the history as addressed by others, I thought I'd offer a mini-guide to use of Italian forces in CMAK. Many are probably less than familiar with the various items of equipment and what makes sense to use, in CM "gamey" terms. In what follows I am speaking primarily of QB use, not scenarios - since in the latter you must use whatever you are given. The Italian infantry is fine but a little unusual in armament. Each platoon comes with 2 LMG squads and 2 rifle squads. Against men in the open, the former are effective at about 250m, while the latter - despite their high ammo - are basically only effective around 100m, or modestly farther. The Italian Breda MMG is a useful addition, with decent ammo and medium speed. It can harass out to 500m. One of them per platoon is the level you want. Then you fire from progressively more shooters as the range falls. At long range just harass with the MMG, which should remain a sound contact and therefore safe. At 250m the LMG squads should also be firing, giving enough firepower to a platoon to stop an attack in the open. At close range (only) the rifles add their fire. When attacking you do the same thing, but send the rifle squads ahead. They draw more of the fire that way, and also get to their 100m effective range. Company HQs can command the line of MGs (and sometimes, a few of the LMG squads) left back as the rest of the men advance. I do not recommend the 45mm Brixia mortar. It has a high ammo load and decent ROF, but its blast is limited and it is not cheap in point terms. It takes several firing at the same target just to pin things. You can get more for the same point investment, elsewhere. The 81mm is fine, capable of breaking a gun or MG target with a minute of fire. You don't need many of them. I also do not recommend the ATRs. They lack punch, even the 20mm version. The better weapon against light armor is the 20mm Breda light AA gun (it is better than its sister 20mm AA). It is cheap, has plenty of ammo, is hard to spot at range, and can pin infantry with direct rapid fire more effectively than the 45mm mortar would. The penetration is limited, but enough to hole armored cars, carriers, and soft vehicles. Against real tanks you can get track and gun damage. The standard gun you want to use is the 75mm field gun. It has better AT ability than the 47mm ATG, along with quite useful HE firepower. It will be spotted out to medium range when it opens up. But it can kill medium (though not heavy) tanks out to useful ranges. And it is still reasonably cheap. I find the 47mm ATGs to be neither fish nor fowl. They aren't small enough to remain unspotted while dueling, unlike the 20mm Breda. They don't have the penetrating power and behind armor effect to be sure of killing things, unlike the 75mm field gun. Against early model Cruisers, 1940 and 1941, they might serve. But they are not appreciably cheaper than 75mms and are dramatically less capable overall. The 75mm AA gun, on the other hand, is an expensive specialized weapon. Use it only to counter heavy tanks - especially Matildas, also Valentines or Grants at long range. It is immobile, easy to spot when it fires, and puts a lot of points in one basket for an enemy mortar or arty barrage to take out. So you don't want to use them as your standard artillery piece. But a few of them, sometimes, can be invaluable. I also do not recommend the truck mounted 75mm portee, rather than the ground mount. The trucked version is actually less expensive. But given how easy it is to knock out, this is deserved. You are usually better off with a towed 75mm, set up in any available cover. The only useful tank is the M13/40. Its gun is the 47mm which leaves something to be desired, and its armor will not stop even 2 pdrs at medium range. It is at least resistent to MGs and light AT (ATRs etc), and has decent MGs and ammo load. You should plan on your main anti-armor firepower coming from your guns rather than these tanks, however. Tanks you want to use against enemy infantry. Of the light armor, the CV-35 is the best of the lot. The AA version of the 33 is OK except for its rariety. The flame version I find overpriced, and rarely useful at the ranges found in the desert (though maybe at night or something...). The right way to think of the CV-35 is as a Pz I. Its advantages are very low profile, low ground pressure and good hp to weight, and adequate ammo for its MGs, which also have decent penetration against light armor (e.g. they can kill a Bren carrier from close enough range, the reverse is not true). They can scout for M13/40s and try to draw out guns, but its main use is simply to MG infantry in open desert. Post a pair of them somewhere to deny a wide open area to enemy infantry. On defense, they act as a barrier to infantry advance and as bait to draw enemy armor onto your gun line. I don't recommend the autoblinda wheeled armored cars. Off road they are not really faster than the CV-35s, they aren't appreciably better armed, they are thinner in front, and they are much larger targets. As for fire support, the 100mm is not useful as it is weaker than the 104 and 105 and also high rariety. The 104 would be fine with rariety off, but is usually more expensive than the 105 without being any better. Use the 105 module for your standard medium arty support. The 149 is a much more effective weapon but incurs corps delay, making it hard to use except for pre-planned fire or fire at TRPs. I don't think the 75mm is worth it, and the 65mm is a joke. The 75mm has decent rariety and price. But 49 blast is weak for an offboard round, and you still incur divisional delay. If you are going to put up with that you might as well get the more serious bang of the 105. The 81mm on the other hand is very cheap and significantly more responsive. If just lacks punch. A little for smoke or against guns is fine. (Even HE will tend to blind temporarily via dust). As for air, the CR42 is a decent poor man's air support. You get a large bomb and some HMG strafing. The Maccis can do more if you don't encounter flak - they can strafe all day - but are also significantly more expensive. Air is a serious option for Italian fire support points in QBs, especially meeting or attacks, because it does not suffer from the generally poor responsiveness of Italian FOs. One other special unit type deserves mention - the Italian paratroopers. These are heavily armed with automatic weapons. Half the squads are nearly pure SMG, while the other get 2 LMGs and 4 SMGs each. At 100m either type has excellent firepower, and in close they are monsters compared to the mostly rifle-heavy infantry everyone else has in the North Africa era. Infantry is not at its best in open desert, but particularly at night these guys could surprise you. To recap - 1. Build your ranged armor war firepower around guns, especially the 75mm field gun and the 20mm Breda AA. A few 75mm AA occasionally, against heavy "I" tanks. If you aren't maxing out your "support" category points you are doing it wrong. 2. Use armor only against infantry forces, or as bait for your guns. Use M13/40s and CV-35s. 3. Suppliment regular infantry with Breda MMGs, one per platoon, and a few 81mm mortars, 1 per company. Open up at the right ranges for each unit type. Lead with rifles when attacking. 4. Use air for fire support on the attack - CR 42s and Maccis. 5. Use 149s for planned fire on limited areas of cover, 105s for most fire support, and small numbers of 81s for smoke, dust, and anti-gun missions. 6. Use paratroop infantry for close in fighting, in town terrain or at night. I hope this helps. [ December 16, 2003, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkunzipper Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Jason, very interesting post! I have a good book with a plenty of uniforms and insignas, as soon I will attend an exam this friday I will try to scanner some image and to post it here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewTF Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Please post pix! I'm currently working on an Italian mod set and need pix of, specifically, paratrooper ammo pouches, the leather gaiters worn by Bersglieri and tank crews, and officer Sahariana shoulder boards. Also, if any Italians or Italophiles out there could help me with a question: what kind of field gear was standard for Italian troops in NA? I've seen depictions of both continental green leather belts and pouchs as well as brownish "tropical" versions of the same. My guess is they would have been mixed, depending on the time period and availability. Any info, pix, etc. would be helpful. I'm afraid most of my knowledge of Italian stuff has to do with olive oil, wine, and Alfa Romeo engines! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewTF Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Bump? Perhaps I should put this in a new thread... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkunzipper Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 I'm still here! in a few hours I will attend the exam, give me the week-end to relax and monday I should give you all the pictures you need! Please tell what organization or anything else you need (Alpini, Bersaglieri, Folgore, etc...)! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewTF Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Originally posted by Pkunzipper: I'm still here! in a few hours I will attend the exam, give me the week-end to relax and monday I should give you all the pictures you need! Please tell what organization or anything else you need (Alpini, Bersaglieri, Folgore, etc...)! Excellent! Images of Folgore would be quite useful, as well as any general pix of Italian infantry in North Africa that show field gear, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botto Posted December 24, 2003 Author Share Posted December 24, 2003 I have quite a few books on the subject If you wish, I can scan in some of the color drawings and email them you you 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Originally posted by Mr Furious: It's strange, but i only ever seem to see the back of the Italians uniforms and they all look the same to me! - yella! Mwahahahahaha! It's strange, but I only ever see posts like this coming from complete idiots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.