Question to British forces experts

[RockinHarry]

Hello,

I´m currently preparing a CMAK scenario portraying a particular battle (attack on HASSUM station) that took place during operation "Veritable" on february 16, 1945. The Brit unit in question is the 1st Black Watch, a bataillon of the famous 51. "Highland" Division. Since this is a CMAK battle, I now have to work with those OOB´s as offered for the italian campaign, which appear to be somewhat different than those for NWE in 1944/45. Comparing to he OOB´s in CMBO (a normal infantry bataillon) I obviously need to make some adjustements to get the 1st BW force composition right for the CMAK battle. Deleting the flamethrower section from the infantry platoons appears to be one measure, but I´m uncertain about the "correct" composition of the regular support units of an infantry bataillon (engineer & AT plt.) CMAK adds a platoon of Wasp flamers, but I know the particular battle has added support, a squadroon of Crocodiles (from Fife and Forfar Yeomanry/ 79th AD).

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by RockinHarry:

[snips]

Deleting the flamethrower section from the infantry platoons appears to be one measure, but I´m uncertain about the "correct" composition of the regular support units of an infantry bataillon (engineer & AT plt.) CMAK adds a platoon of Wasp flamers, but I know the particular battle has added support, a squadroon of Crocodiles (from Fife and Forfar Yeomanry/ 79th AD).

The ATk platoon is scaled for six 6-pounders, and has 6 Loyd Carriers as towing vehicles, a Universal Carrier for the platoon commander, and 15cwt trucks for ammunition supply and the REME fitter section.

The mortar platoon has six 3-inch (81mm) mortars, which I assume you will have off-table. If you want it on-table, you need a Universal Carrier for each mortar detachment, another for the platoon commander, 3 15cwt trucks and a 3-ton lorry.

The carrier platoon has 4 sections each of 3 Universal Carriers, plus a carrier for the platoon commander and a couple of 15cwt trucks. Each carrier has a Bren gun, each section has a PIAT, and I would give each section a 2-in mortar as well.

The Assault Pioneer platoon has two assault sections and one pioneer section, and a total strength of 1 officer and 28 men.

I assume you will not be bothering to represent the signals and admin platoons.

The above is mostly drawn from George Forty's "British Army Handbook 1939-1945". Obviously the se are the nominal strengths, and what was actually fielded might be quite different. Only inspection of the unit war diary for the action concerned is likely to tell you exactly what they had on the day.

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

Carrier Platoons in the Canadian Army were fitted with WASP kits by early 1945 - I don't know if the British also adopted this practice? If so flamethrowing capability would not be ahistoric; I can't speak for the specific battalion in question, though.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RockinHarry:

[snips]

Deleting the flamethrower section from the infantry platoons appears to be one measure, but I´m uncertain about the "correct" composition of the regular support units of an infantry bataillon (engineer & AT plt.) CMAK adds a platoon of Wasp flamers, but I know the particular battle has added support, a squadroon of Crocodiles (from Fife and Forfar Yeomanry/ 79th AD).

The ATk platoon is scaled for six 6-pounders, and has 6 Loyd Carriers as towing vehicles, a Universal Carrier for the platoon commander, and 15cwt trucks for ammunition supply and the REME fitter section.

The mortar platoon has six 3-inch (81mm) mortars, which I assume you will have off-table. If you want it on-table, you need a Universal Carrier for each mortar detachment, another for the platoon commander, 3 15cwt trucks and a 3-ton lorry.

The carrier platoon has 4 sections each of 3 Universal Carriers, plus a carrier for the platoon commander and a couple of 15cwt trucks. Each carrier has a Bren gun, each section has a PIAT, and I would give each section a 2-in mortar as well.

The Assault Pioneer platoon has two assault sections and one pioneer section, and a total strength of 1 officer and 28 men.

I assume you will not be bothering to represent the signals and admin platoons.

The above is mostly drawn from George Forty's "British Army Handbook 1939-1945". Obviously the se are the nominal strengths, and what was actually fielded might be quite different. Only inspection of the unit war diary for the action concerned is likely to tell you exactly what they had on the day.

All the best,

John. </font>

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

I assume you will not be bothering to represent the signals and admin platoons.

All the best,

John.

Just recognized that CMAK obviously represents both these platoons as extras combat platoons in the support company. Or is these integral part of the SC?! CMBO does not have these extra 2 platoons, as well as the sniper squad. I assume these were directly subordinated to the combat companies? Same for the infantry flamers. CMBO has an inf. flamer squad in the engineers platoon, while in CMAK single man flamers were directly attached to the infantry platoons?

So does BFC gives in CMAK a more "accurate" british infantry OOB, by including extra infantry platoons and the snipers in the normal infantry Btl. OOB? Or was that a real difference between forces serving in italy and NWE theatre?

CMBO has an extra Inf. Btl. variation with MMG support attached. Was that a standard procedure to attach (Vickers) MMG´s to infantry Btl. and if yes how many? :confused:

[John D Salt]

Apologies for the delay in replying, I've been dealing with stuff.

Originally posted by RockinHarry:

[snips]

So does BFC gives in CMAK a more "accurate" british infantry OOB, by including extra infantry platoons and the snipers in the normal infantry Btl. OOB? Or was that a real difference between forces serving in italy and NWE theatre?

Sniper establishments have always been a bit subject to fashion and personal taste in the British Army. A good general rule is up to 8 sniper pairs per battalion, raised on the authority of the CO. Current W/Es (which aren't called that any more but I forget the TLA) have a properly-established battalion sniper platoon, but this is a recent innovation, I've not seen it until recent years. 16 snipers max per unit has, however, been a good rule of thumb fairly consistently since about 1916. Variation is not between theatres so much as between battalions.

Originally posted by RockinHarry:

CMBO has an extra Inf. Btl. variation with MMG support attached. Was that a standard procedure to attach (Vickers) MMG´s to infantry Btl. and if yes how many? :confused:

Vickers MMGs are not integral to most battalion W/Es, but in a normal inf div might well be loaned from the divisional MG battalion. By 1944 this would have 1 coy of 4.2" heavy mortars and 3 coys of Vickers MMGs, the Mor coy having 3 or 4 (depending which source you believe, Joslen is compatible with 4) platoons each of 4 mortars, and the MMG coys each having 3 MMG platoons each of 4 MMGs.

That amount of support for a div suggests, on a even-handed basis, one MMG coy per brigade, and a platoon (4 MMGs) for a battalion, but it all depends on how the commanders want to task organise.

A lorried inf bde in an amrd div has an independent MG Coy, which has something like 4 4.2" Mors and 12 MMGs.

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

Did the British infantry battalions not have a "Scout and Sniper Platoon" in the same fashion as the Canadians?

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Did the British infantry battalions not have a "Scout and Sniper Platoon" in the same fashion as the Canadians?

If it did, I've never heard of such a thing, although I think some post-war airborne bn orgs had a "patrols" platoon. And all the first ten pages of google hits for "scout and sniper platoon" seem to refer to either the USMC or the Canadian Army. It's probably fair to say that both organizations have been more successful in staying obsessive about individual marksmanship than most other armies.

When I was in the TA, the bunch of odds and sods fielded by HQ company on training weekends were at various times designated "Defence platoon", "Recce platoon", or "Intelligence section". None of those really described our job, which was usually to provide enemy for the rifle companies (one of our O/Cdts made up some shoulder-slides saying "PLA"; I wore a Lenin badge in my hat). Sometimes there were rumours that we were going to get a couple of 81mm mortars or a MOBATs and become mortar platoon or anti-tank platoon, but we never did while I was there. Given that HQ company's defence-recce-int-odds'n'sods platoon made a disportionate contribution towards the shooting team, it could probably have been designated "scout and sniper platoon" no more inappropriately than its other designations, but it never was.

All the best,

John.

[RockinHarry]

Thnaks again! I think I will go with the snipers and the engineer platoon, but not the Wasps and single man flamers. A platoon of MMG should be ok. Yet need to check divisional Arty and AGRA support for the period and under XXX corps command, I should have that stuff in my docs somewhere.

My main sources is the "Veritable" report files (PDF format, detail maps included!) that can be found at:

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/contentdm/home.htm

as well as some stuff from

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/history_archives/engraph/cmhq_e.asp?cat=1

Book sources I use is Whitakers Rhineland..., Thompsons book, The 51st Highland Division, The Victory Campaign and some german stuff dealing with german paratroopers.

more questions may pop up soon...

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by RockinHarry:

Yet need to check divisional Arty and AGRA support for the period and under XXX corps command, I should have that stuff in my docs somewhere.

See if it matches this:

CRA 30 Corps (Rawlins)

2 Cdn AGRA (Leggat)

3 Cdn Med Regt

4 Cdn Med Regt

7 Cdn Med Regt

10 Med Regt

1 Hy Regt

3 AGRA (Cleeve)

13 Med Regt

59 Med Regt

67 Med Regt

72 Med Regt

59 Hy Regt

4 AGRA (Hambleton)

53 Med Regt

65 Med Regt (less 1 bty)

79 Med Regt

51 Hy Regt (less 1 155mm bty)

5 AGRA (Yates)

7 Med Regt

64 Med Regt

84 Med Regt

121 Med Regt

52 Hy Regt

9 AGRA (Crosland)

9 Med Regt

11 Med Regt

107 Med Regt

53 Hy Regt

Additional arty:

74 AA Bde (Smith)

106 AA Bde (Jones)

6 Fd Regt

19 Fd Regt

86 Fd Regt

147 Fd Regt

73 A Tk Regt

27 LAA Regt

1 Cdn Rocket Unit

3 Super Hy Regt

Div Arty for 51 (H) Div (Rennie)

CRA (Shiel)

126 Fd Regt

127 Fd Regt

128 Fd Regt

61 A Tk Regt

40 LAA Regt

The total number of weapons, by type, in the Corps arty appears to be:

1 A Tk Regt --> 48 17-pdr

1 LAA Regt --> 54 40mm Bofors

2 AA Bdes --> 144 3.7-in AA

4 Fd Regts --> 96 25-pdr

18 Med Regts (less 1 bty) --> 32 4.5-in and 248 5.5-in

5 Hy Regts (less 1 bty) --> 36 155mm and 40 7.2-in

1 Super Hy Regt --> 2 8-in and 4 240mm

1 Rocket Unit --> 12 32-barrel Land Mattress

...all from the Staff College battlefield tour guide for Veritable, 1947.

They really shouldn't be short of indirect fire support.

All the best,

John.

[ October 28, 2006, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: John D Salt ]

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RockinHarry:

Yet need to check divisional Arty and AGRA support for the period and under XXX corps command, I should have that stuff in my docs somewhere.

See if it matches this:

CRA 30 Corps (Rawlins)

2 Cdn AGRA (Leggat)

3 Cdn Med Regt

4 Cdn Med Regt

7 Cdn Med Regt

10 Med Regt

1 Hy Regt

3 AGRA (Cleeve)

13 Med Regt

59 Med Regt

67 Med Regt

72 Med Regt

59 Hy Regt

4 AGRA (Hambleton)

53 Med Regt

65 Med Regt (less 1 bty)

79 Med Regt

51 Hy Regt (less 1 155mm bty)

5 AGRA (Yates)

7 Med Regt

64 Med Regt

84 Med Regt

121 Med Regt

52 Hy Regt

9 AGRA (Crosland)

9 Med Regt

11 Med Regt

107 Med Regt

53 Hy Regt

Additional arty:

74 AA Bde (Smith)

106 AA Bde (Jones)

6 Fd Regt

19 Fd Regt

86 Fd Regt

147 Fd Regt

73 A Tk Regt

27 LAA Regt

1 Cdn Rocket Unit

3 Super Hy Regt

Div Arty for 51 (H) Div (Rennie)

CRA (Shiel)

126 Fd Regt

127 Fd Regt

128 Fd Regt

61 A Tk Regt

40 LAA Regt

The total number of weapons, by type, in the Corps arty appears to be:

1 A Tk Regt --> 48 17-pdr

1 LAA Regt --> 54 40mm Bofors

2 AA Bdes --> 144 3.7-in AA

4 Fd Regts --> 96 25-pdr

18 Med Regts (less 1 bty) --> 32 4.5-in and 248 5.5-in

5 Hy Regts (less 1 bty) --> 36 155mm and 40 7.2-in

1 Super Hy Regt --> 2 8-in and 4 240mm

1 Rocket Unit --> 12 32-barrel Land Mattress

...all from the Staff College battlefield tour guide for Veritable, 1947.

They really shouldn't be short of indirect fire support.

All the best,

John. </font>

[RockinHarry]

Here´s support and attached units during Op Veritable:

51 (H) Inf Div

under command:

107 RAC

6 Fd Regt

146/63 Anti.-tank Bty (SP)

Det 4 Svy Regt

'C' Flt 652 AOP Sqn

Det 100 Radar Bty

Tp 356 SL Bty

in support:

'B' Sqn 1 LOTHIANS

1. FF YEO less 'B' & 'C' Sqns

42 Assault Regt RE less 16 and 617 Sqns

79 Med Regt

Tanks obviously is mostly from 79. AD; Crocodiles, AVRE´s and Churchills from 34th TB.

'C' Flt 652 AOP Sqn sounds like "C flight of 652 Aireal Observation Plane Squadroon, but what is the remaining units "under command"? 107 RAC is clear ( a Btl. of 34. TB) as well as the self propelled AT (Archers?) and the 6 Fd Regt.

Det 4 Svy Regt??

Det 100 Radar Bty?

Tp 356 SL Bty??

[JonS]

Assuming 63rd A-Tk Regt was a Corps asset (which I think it was) the SPs in 146 Bty would be M-10C Achilles (M-10s mounting a 17-pr).

Det 100 Radar Bty - Detachment from 100 Radar Battery. Presumably one (or maybe two) radars used for counter battery and counter-mortar work, and also at a pinch to adjust outgoing fire. No relevance to CM, although you might up the level of British FOOs by one step, or reduce the amount of German indirect fire assets. Either - or both - of those also make sense as far as the AOP Flight is concerned.

Tp 356 SL Bty - a Troop from 356 Searchlight Battery. Presumably four searchlights. No real relevance to CM, although you might make the environmental conditions a little better (i.e. longer visibility) than otherwise - e.g. dawn instead of night.

Regards

Jon

PS Just checked 63rd A-Tk Regt - yes, it was a Corps asset. Therefore Achilles, organised as three troops, each of four vehicles.

[John Kettler]

Another great thread. My, what a lot of artillery!

JonS,

Pretty clever ideas for modeling what's not modeled!

Regards,

John Kettler

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by JonS:

Assuming 63rd A-Tk Regt was a Corps asset (which I think it was) the SPs in 146 Bty would be M-10C Achilles (M-10s mounting a 17-pr).

Det 100 Radar Bty - Detachment from 100 Radar Battery. Presumably one (or maybe two) radars used for counter battery and counter-mortar work, and also at a pinch to adjust outgoing fire. No relevance to CM, although you might up the level of British FOOs by one step, or reduce the amount of German indirect fire assets. Either - or both - of those also make sense as far as the AOP Flight is concerned.

Tp 356 SL Bty - a Troop from 356 Searchlight Battery. Presumably four searchlights. No real relevance to CM, although you might make the environmental conditions a little better (i.e. longer visibility) than otherwise - e.g. dawn instead of night.

Regards

Jon

PS Just checked 63rd A-Tk Regt - yes, it was a Corps asset. Therefore Achilles, organised as three troops, each of four vehicles.

thanks, that answered my remaining questions! I also worked through most of a website dealing with Brit/CM Arty and methods, which leaves nothing unanswered actually. :cool:

"Det 4 Svy Regt" seems to be a surveylance unit, similar to german "Beobachtungs-Abteilung", dealing with counter battery/mortar tasks ect.

now back to scenario making....

[RockinHarry]

I was also glad to find something about 51. HD MG Battailon, the 1/7th Battalion The Middlesex Regiment in the net:

http://www.prole.demon.co.uk/middlesex/1_7.html

good info about how the MG battailon was employed in battle :cool:

knew of "pepperpot" before, but read for the first time about "mustard pot"!

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by RockinHarry:

"Det 4 Svy Regt" seems to be a surveylance unit, similar to german "Beobachtungs-Abteilung", dealing with counter battery/mortar tasks ect.

It's "survey" rather than "surveillance", but you're basically right.

As the name implies, the primary task of a survey regiment is to much about with theodolites and measuring tapes to survey guns and OPs on to the grid. 4th (Durham) Survey Regiment RA had a survey battery, a sound ranging battery and a flash spotting battery, outline organization as follows:

RHQ

- Survey Battery:

-- HQ survey section

-- X Troop

--- A section

--- B section

-- Y Troop

--- C section

--- D section

- S-R Battery:

-- R Troop

-- S Troop

- F-S Battery:

-- A Troop

--- A OP

--- B OP

--- C OP

-- B Troop

--- D OP

--- P OP

--- T OP

For Op Veritable, assigned to 51 (H) Div were:

Survey section X Troop

No. 1 4-pen recorder section

S Troop S-R recce party

B Troop short-base F-S party

Tac BHQ, 48 Battery

I believe that 48 Bty is the survey battery, but it is not entirely clear from my reading of my source for the above, "Z Location, or Survey in War, the story of the 4th Durham Suvey Regiment Royal Artillery", by Whetton & Ogden.

My father was a Royal Artillery surveyor when he did his national service just after the war, and was instructed by some of the veterans of 4th Survey Regt. It's his birthday today.

All the best,

John.

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RockinHarry:

"Det 4 Svy Regt" seems to be a surveylance unit, similar to german "Beobachtungs-Abteilung", dealing with counter battery/mortar tasks ect.

It's "survey" rather than "surveillance", but you're basically right.

As the name implies, the primary task of a survey regiment is to much about with theodolites and measuring tapes to survey guns and OPs on to the grid. 4th (Durham) Survey Regiment RA had a survey battery, a sound ranging battery and a flash spotting battery, outline organization as follows:

RHQ

- Survey Battery:

-- HQ survey section

-- X Troop

--- A section

--- B section

-- Y Troop

--- C section

--- D section

- S-R Battery:

-- R Troop

-- S Troop

- F-S Battery:

-- A Troop

--- A OP

--- B OP

--- C OP

-- B Troop

--- D OP

--- P OP

--- T OP

For Op Veritable, assigned to 51 (H) Div were:

Survey section X Troop

No. 1 4-pen recorder section

S Troop S-R recce party

B Troop short-base F-S party

Tac BHQ, 48 Battery

I believe that 48 Bty is the survey battery, but it is not entirely clear from my reading of my source for the above, "Z Location, or Survey in War, the story of the 4th Durham Suvey Regiment Royal Artillery", by Whetton & Ogden.

My father was a Royal Artillery surveyor when he did his national service just after the war, and was instructed by some of the veterans of 4th Survey Regt. It's his birthday today.

All the best,

John. </font>

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

...all from the Staff College battlefield tour guide for Veritable, 1947.

forgot to ask; is that source anywhere available in the net? (I might have stumbled upon it under different name in the past)

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by RockinHarry:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

...all from the Staff College battlefield tour guide for Veritable, 1947.

forgot to ask; is that source anywhere available in the net? (I might have stumbled upon it under different name in the past) </font>

[RockinHarry]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RockinHarry:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John D Salt:

...all from the Staff College battlefield tour guide for Veritable, 1947.

forgot to ask; is that source anywhere available in the net? (I might have stumbled upon it under different name in the past) </font>

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

Sniper establishments have always been a bit subject to fashion and personal taste in the British Army. A good general rule is up to 8 sniper pairs per battalion, raised on the authority of the CO. Current W/Es (which aren't called that any more but I forget the TLA) have a properly-established battalion sniper platoon, but this is a recent innovation, I've not seen it until recent years. 16 snipers max per (Battalion) has, however, been a good rule of thumb fairly consistently since about 1916. Variation is not between theatres so much as between battalions.

It is my understanding, which I admit is totally derived from secondary sources only, that 8 snippers per Battalion is max, not 16 which I'm assuming to be the result from a case of double counting somewhere.

AIUI the establishment of snipers in a Brit Battalion was always only ever of 8 snipers, first origionally they were organised as pairs, two per Company attatched to the Coy HQ. Latter they were all withdrawn from under the Companies and combined into a section of 8 snipers independantly under the Battalion. The main benifit from this was not an increase in the number of actual snipers but that there was now room to provide them with promotions. There being a need to do so given that they are in a full section of their all of own. -What section could not function (in the British Army) without the right and proper proportions between privates and NCOs, it would just not have been Cricket otherwise!

Tally ho.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

It is my understanding, which I admit is totally derived from secondary sources only, that 8 snippers per Battalion is max, not 16 which I'm assuming to be the result from a case of double counting somewhere.

The figure of 16 comes from the copy of the "Sandhurst precis" I was issued as an Officer Cadet in Exeter UOTC in about 1982.

I can't find my copy of "Sniping in France" at the moment, but I seem to recall a similar figure being mentioned there.

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

There being a need to do so given that they are in a full section of their all of own.

It's not a section, in current establishments it is a platoon. I've never heard of it being referred to as a section.

I'm wondering if we have a case of "half-counting", treating a sniper pair as one sniper and one observer, thus halving the number of "snipers".

Wossname Bull's nice new glossy Osprey book on WW2 tactics gives 8 as a battalion sniper establishment, but says this is typical rather than the maximum, and in any case also mentions snipers in sections, who are rather clearly not snipers in the wear-a-ghillie-suit, passed-the-long-course sense.

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

-What section could not function (in the British Army) without the right and proper proportions between privates and NCOs, it would just not have been Cricket otherwise!

Given that people who've passed the sniper course are normally sergeants, the proportion of NCOs is all to cock whatever you do.

You have an odd view of the British Army if you think it pays the slightest attention to laid-down scales of anything (exempt officers who have just passed the staff course and the doctrine nazis from Upavon).

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

It is my understanding, which I admit is totally derived from secondary sources only, that 8 snippers per Battalion

Oh, you wrote "snippers".

In the British Army, only officers of at least field rank (Majors and above) can be trusted not to run with scissors.

All the best,

John.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

Anyone with a definative source out there, to settle the issue?

Currently it may be a platoon of 16 snipers but what matters for us in CM terms is the TO&E back then to help with the right proportions of snipers for the force sizes we use in CM.

May be I was even double counting, 8 snipers per Battalion, origionaly there having been in each Inf Coy one pair of sniper/spotter two man team! Therefore that really actually means for a proper maximum ratio that it is only at one single man sniper team per British Inf Coy in CM. :eek:

Ha ha how about that John?

Likewise with the maximum of 16 snipers per Battaion, it would mean that half of them are spotters and that thereby the ratio un CM terms is only two single man sniper teams per Company.