Kingfish Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Looking for info on the boundary line for 21st Pz and 346 ID during the period June 10-18, 1944. Also what units from each div held each side of the boundary would be a big help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Kingfish I have this volume and some others at home which may have the information you require. I'll check back in this evening, if you still need it, I"ll look for you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 Thanks Fred. While you're at it, can you verify which unit defended the Bois de Bavant during that period? I'll need exact numbers of men and vehicles, ammo loads, defensive deployments down to the meter, how many men / guns per foxhole, and the depth of each foxhole. Oh, and what they had for breakfast. Thanks, man! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 King I suppose you know it was allied troops holding the Bois de Bavent, elements of 6th Airborne (scattered gropups from 3rd and 5th brigades, and French commandos, according to German intel - Canadians according to a homepage with the history ofthe 6th). The forest is described in my sources as part of the Luftlandekopf, i.e. Airhead. The forest marking the left flank of 21st Pz. You're interested in a detailed breakdown of the Airborne units or the German units assaulting them? Cheerio Dandelion [ February 16, 2006, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Dandelion ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Breakfast with the 21st and 352nd is no problem at all. All German troops were issued with 750g of bread per day, which was to be used mainly but not only for breakfast. 20g of ersatz coffee was also obligatory, although under auspicious circumstances you could get the same amount of chocolate(drinking version) or tea instead. With any luck, they would have had the 150g of fat (margarine, if lucky) and perhaps even a spot (200g) of marmalade or artificial honey. If they wanted to, they could down their daily 150g of sausage with their breakfast too. This assuming they did not resort to iron rations, which they weren't supposed to. Breakfast with the 6th Airborne? Er, well, I don't know. Ham and jam? Chups Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 Originally posted by Dandelion: Breakfast with the 21st and 352nd is no problem at all. All German troops were issued with 750g of bread per day, which was to be used mainly but not only for breakfast. 20g of ersatz coffee was also obligatory, although under auspicious circumstances you could get the same amount of chocolate(drinking version) or tea instead. With any luck, they would have had the 150g of fat (margarine, if lucky) and perhaps even a spot (200g) of marmalade or artificial honey. If they wanted to, they could down their daily 150g of sausage with their breakfast too. This assuming they did not resort to iron rations, which they weren't supposed to. Breakfast with the 6th Airborne? Er, well, I don't know. Ham and jam? Chups Dandelion Why do I get the feeling that if I was to ask who the loader was in Pz #327 on August 23, 1943 you would tell me not only his name, but age, rank, where he was born, mother's maiden name, his shoe size, favorite color and whether he preferred blondes or brunettes? I will stump you! Don't know how, but I will!!! BTW, did 6th AB hold the entire Bois de Bavant? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 The crossroads formed the intersection point for five roads that ascended the ridge’s gradually rising slopes from opposite compass points. Bavent ridge was only a significant feature because the country surrounding it was so low and flat. Running along a generally north-south line from Sallenelles near the coast almost to Troarn, which was east of and parallel to Caen, it formed the only viable defensive ground that the airborne division could use to advantage in securing its eastern flank. If the counterattacking Germans broke through the defensive line holding the ridge, they would likely succeed in pushing the division’s lines back to the River Orne bridges. These bridges, captured by British glider troops on D-Day, were vital to Second British Army’s plan to break out from the Normandy bridgehead and advance towards Paris. Holding the ridge from Sallenelles to Bréville was the 1st Special Service Brigade, a commando force that had landed at Sword Beach and linked up with the airborne troops late on June 6. From Bréville, which stood atop the highest point, to where the ridge overlooked the southern extremity of a small forest known as the Bois de Bavent was the responsibility of 6th Division’s 3rd Brigade. The 9th Parachute Battalion held the line from right of Bréville to just short of the crossroads, then the Canadians took over the defence from the crossroads to the forest’s northern edge, where they handed off to the 8th Parachute Battalion. From an on line source: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Originally posted by Kingfish: Why do I get the feeling that if I was to ask who the loader was in Pz #327 on August 23, 1943 you would tell me not only his name, but age, rank, where he was born, mother's maiden name, his shoe size, favorite color and whether he preferred blondes or brunettes? Assuming he was married, and his wife corresponded to his preferences, that might actually be possible. The man would have been somewhere between 19 and 30, meaning he will have married some time between 1933 and 1943, which means his marriage certificate will contain the colour of hair of his wife, her maiden name, his place of birth and so on. Of course you'd need to find the man himself first, but 1943 that's not really impossible at all. Shoesize might become a problem though. But you'd have his height, and would be able to make a very educated guess from there. I will stump you! Don't know how, but I will!!! I have a sinking feeling you will. BTW, did 6th AB hold the entire Bois de Bavant?The forest is not mentioned as a deployment area for any German unit. It is repreatedly mentioned as an assault objective (never taken). However, that's one very large forest, and reputedly snary and thick. It would take quite quite a lot of manpower to actually secure the entirity of it. From what I am able to ascertain, mentions of combat are along the edges of the forest. Perhaps not able to squeeze in a battallion, I feel convinced the Germans would have deployed roving patrols, snipers and mortars as they always would if they could. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 This image shows the deployment of the 21st PzDiv just prior to the invasion, you probably cant see much, and the internet image is not much better. You do know that Generalleutnant Feuchtinger was notorius for being away from his headquarters, and I believe he was with his lady friend on D-Day. His AARs are listed as suspect in most accounts for that reason. The unit itself made excellent use of SP guns mounted on Czech and other captured French chassis and gave the Commonwealth forces fits in the various Caen operations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Originally posted by Dandelion: Breakfast with the 21st and 352nd is no problem at all. All German troops were issued with 750g of bread per day, which was to be used mainly but not only for breakfast. 20g of ersatz coffee [snips] What on earth is the point of being stationed on occupation duty in a nice place like Normandy if you are going to eat issue rations for breakfast? Wehrmacht issue at that, and it is a well-known principle that the stronger the army, the worse its food (Source: Asterix Legionnaire). If they were real soldiers, they would be eating fresh croissants, a baguette jambon-beurre and a bit of Camembert or Livarot, with maybe a small glass of Calvados to accompany their coffee. Originally posted by Dandelion: Breakfast with the 6th Airborne? Er, well, I don't know. Ham and jam? Oh, very good. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Originally posted by John D Salt: real soldiers, ---- maybe a small glass of Calvados Does not compute. All the best Andreas Ps. Check behind your sofa. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Originally posted by John D Salt: What on earth is the point of being stationed on occupation duty in a nice place like Normandy if you are going to eat issue rations for breakfast? Wehrmacht issue at that, and it is a well-known principle that the stronger the army, the worse its food (Source: Asterix Legionnaire). Goscinny and Uderzo were very wise men. France and Italy arguably have the best cousines in Europe, and just look where that brought them in the last war. Germans and Britons on the other hand are both globally notorious for their excentric abnormities in terms of cousine and ferocious absence of taste, and they fought like hell, almost exterminating eachother. If they were real soldiers, they would be eating fresh croissants, a baguette jambon-beurre and a bit of Camembert or Livarot, with maybe a small glass of Calvados to accompany their coffee. Right. Now you've got me hungry and thirsty. And all I have is a sip of gin. You realise of course that I'd be chewing Livarot and sipping calvados right now in some stone cottage in Bretagne, with one of those stunnig French women right beside me, had it not been for you Anglosaxons? You could have just left us there you know. But nooooo. Here comes the broken heirlooms of Henry V to reclaim all that is good in this world, kicking us all the way to Berlin. Result? American sitcoms, Sri Lanka produced clothes and hotdogs for us all is what we got out of that adventure. Now only the French eat like kings and have beautiful women, while we huddle in our rainy, dreary, grey, godforsaken homelands, snivelling over our wurst and steak and kidney puddings, with less beauty in sight than staring down an abandoned Welsh colemine. Ye Gods what a fate, what a world. [deep sigh, deep sip of gin] All the best, John.And all the best to you John, most sincerely. Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Originally posted by Dandelion: Now only the French eat like kings and have beautiful women, while we huddle in our rainy, dreary, grey, godforsaken homelands, snivelling over our wurst and steak and kidney puddings, with less beauty in sight than staring down an abandoned Welsh colemine. Ye Gods what a fate, what a world. [deep sigh, deep sip of gin] Speak for yourself. All the best Andreas [ February 17, 2006, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 What a simple explanation for two World Wars...crappy cuisine..... The most complicated social issues usually boil down to something simple when educated and civil men discuss them. There is still hope for mankind... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Speak for yourself. All the best Andreas Ah yes. Yes of course, I might have anticipated that. Italian wife, job in France, taxes in space. Regrettably, the next time we invade France and reach Paris, we will have to punish you. You can't feast on your pudding like this before you've finished your meat. Yours truly Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Or we could forego the whole punishment idea (that's soooo BlackJack) and I invite you for diner to corrupt you. Ask Mattias if it is worth it. All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Originally posted by Dandelion: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kingfish: Why do I get the feeling that if I was to ask who the loader was in Pz #327 on August 23, 1943 you would tell me not only his name, but age, rank, where he was born, mother's maiden name, his shoe size, favorite color and whether he preferred blondes or brunettes? Assuming he was married, and his wife corresponded to his preferences, that might actually be possible. The man would have been somewhere between 19 and 30, meaning he will have married some time between 1933 and 1943, which means his marriage certificate will contain the colour of hair of his wife, her maiden name, his place of birth and so on. Of course you'd need to find the man himself first, but 1943 that's not really impossible at all. Shoesize might become a problem though. But you'd have his height, and would be able to make a very educated guess from there. Cheerio Dandelion </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 That is one brilliant theory. Russian cuisine is barely worth the term, in a lot of ways all it is is porridge, potatoes, cabbabge; plus all sorts of finger snacks you eat when you drink vodka, which is of course the point of sitting around a table. Who cares about eating when there's vodka? I think you can even make the arguement Russian cuisine is even worse than German cuisine, which would account for the war result. As any Russian will tell you, in the old pre-revolution days things on the culinary front were much better, fresh ingredients and no preservatives and always made by grandmother at home and so on, which would account for the result of the First World War. The only problem that I see with the theory is that Russian cuisine is heavily polluted by cuisine from the ethnic minorities, which usually are brilliant. Certainly they're not as sophisticated as French haute cuisine, but Georgian, Ukrainian, and Uzbek food, for instance, is excellent. My wife made a borshch last night to die for.... (Runs to kitchen for leftovers) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Originally posted by Bigduke6: That is one brilliant theory. Russian cuisine is barely worth the term, in a lot of ways all it is is porridge, potatoes, cabbabge; plus all sorts of finger snacks you eat when you drink vodka, which is of course the point of sitting around a table. Who cares about eating when there's vodka? I think you can even make the arguement Russian cuisine is even worse than German cuisine, which would account for the war result. As any Russian will tell you, in the old pre-revolution days things on the culinary front were much better, fresh ingredients and no preservatives and always made by grandmother at home and so on, which would account for the result of the First World War. See, it's not Russian cuisine that's bad, it's Soviet cuisine. The following quotes are from "The Food and Cooking of Russia", by Lesley Chamberlain (Allen Lane, London, 1982): "During Soviet rule Russian cuisine has undoubtedly lapsed from the art it had become by the time of the 1917 Revolution. Shortages of ingredients and lack of variety are a great deal to blame. The standardization and nationalization of restaurants have also been a disincentive to good service, high gastronomic standards and inventive menus." "State supplies are plagued by constant and unpredictable shortages of everything except cabbage." All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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