Sgt Joch Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 I have downloaded Andrew TFs commonwealth uniforms mod, but frankly I'm not sure which is the most appropriate for the Canadian army in Italy: tropical Khaki or lightweight denim? And what about AFV crews, denim or coveralls? Right now, I'm using the green denim, but I don't know if it is accurate. [ June 14, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: JC_Hare ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewTF Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Michael Dorosh might be the best one to chime in here, but I have a copy of his book (that he kindly sent me) so I'll stick my neck out and say that the denims are probably more common, but there are numerous photos in the book of Canadian soldiers wearing KD in Italy so I'd say it's a toss-up. Maybe someone who knows more can help further, but I think at this point it's a matter of personal preference. The one error in my KD battledress mod is that the sleeve insignia should probably be on shoulder slips, but I think that's a minor quibble. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 The Canadian Army widely wore KD in Italy, in fact, Battle Dress was withdrawn during the summer and replaced with KD, also known as "bush dress". I think the denims were likely more common in NW Europe where they were used to supplement the BD in cold weather and to wear in place of BD in warm weather on the Continent. The weather was never warm enough in England to require either uniform. The KD used in the Med was exclusively British, Indian or US War Aid in manufacture; Canadian KD was not used in Europe. Not sure how common denim BD was in Italy - I think the photos in my book are all from NW Europe. It's an interesting question, I may have to consult some of the real experts and remember to post back here with my findings. Glad you liked the book, Andrew. My next one will be on officers' uniforms - probably less applicable to CM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 Andrew, Michael, thanks for the quick reply, I had seen photos of canadian soldiers in Sicily and in the summer of '44 wearing KD, but I did not think it would be warm enough at Ortona in december. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Originally posted by JC_Hare: Andrew, Michael, thanks for the quick reply, I had seen photos of canadian soldiers in Sicily and in the summer of '44 wearing KD, but I did not think it would be warm enough at Ortona in december. Wool battledress was the uniform worn in the winter in Italy, so you are absolutely correct. Photos taken at Ortona will verify that wool battledress seems to have been worn exclusively. Strome Galloway mentions in one of his books that the KD was withdrawn in the autumn and replaced with BD. In the spring, the BD was taken in and again replaced with KD. The winters in Italy didn't involve much snow - not as far south as the Canadians were - but were quite rainy and cool. The practice of having "Summer Dress" and "Winter Dress" was not new - both the US Army and the Canadian Army practiced this in North America (and still do). Tan cotton uniforms were worn in the summer in Canada/CONUS and replaced with heavyweight wool in the winter. The dates for the changeover were actually printed in routine orders in Canada - I believe 1 May and 1 November or something like that. I don't think there were specific dates for the change from summer to winter dress in Italy, but I could be wrong. I unfortunately don't have access to the Canadian Army Routine Orders (Overseas) at the moment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Wool battledress was the uniform worn in the winter in Italy, so you are absolutely correct. Photos taken at Ortona will verify that wool battledress seems to have been worn exclusively. Strome Galloway mentions in one of his books that the KD was withdrawn in the autumn and replaced with BD. In the spring, the BD was taken in and again replaced with KD. The winters in Italy didn't involve much snow - not as far south as the Canadians were - but were quite rainy and cool. That's exactly the info I was looking for, Khaki in summer, wool battledress in winter, would'nt want my virtual troops to commit a fashion faux pas. What about the AFV crews? Were the coveralls used in Italy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 I honestly don't know much about tank crew uniforms but can try and find out. I do know that there were the summer overalls, and the wool lined "pixie suit" for winter, but don't know if they wore them in Italy. Off the top of my head I've seen pictures of tank crews in Sicily in bush dress - shorts and shirts - and would imagine overalls too warm for some in Sicily or Italian summers, especially inside a metal tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 www.gijoecanada.com cant be wrong edit, sorry these are brits 8th army [ June 14, 2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: junk2drive ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I honestly don't know much about tank crew uniforms but can try and find out. I do know that there were the summer overalls, and the wool lined "pixie suit" for winter, but don't know if they wore them in Italy. Off the top of my head I've seen pictures of tank crews in Sicily in bush dress - shorts and shirts - and would imagine overalls too warm for some in Sicily or Italian summers, especially inside a metal tank. Thanks for all the info. Makes sense about the overalls, they would be too hot in summer and would probably be too warm during the Italian winter as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknight (DC) Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by AndrewTF: Maybe someone who knows more can help further, but I think at this point it's a matter of personal preference. The one error in my KD battledress mod is that the sleeve insignia should probably be on shoulder slips, but I think that's a minor quibble. I've seen examples of the insignia being sewn directly onto the KD and of the insignia being placed on removeable pieces of cloth that hung down from the shoulder straps (can't remember the name of this at the moment), so you aren't wrong either way. I have not ever seen Canadian insignia on shoulder strap loops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 ok, instead of going to bed, i just got done cutting and pasting andrew's white tshirt neck into the green denims. then find a backpack and roll from andrew's cmbo mod. then copy and renumber for ew mw brits, sa (sub for gurkas, dutch) , nz, aussies. now i have a better burma asia green uni. thanks guys, i'm going to bed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by Darknight_Canuck: ... the insignia being placed on removeable pieces of cloth that hung down from the shoulder straps (can't remember the name of this at the moment), ...'brassard' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by JonS: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Darknight_Canuck: ... the insignia being placed on removeable pieces of cloth that hung down from the shoulder straps (can't remember the name of this at the moment), ...'brassard' </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted June 15, 2004 Author Share Posted June 15, 2004 I leafed through Zuelkhe's books "Ortona", "The Liri valley" and "Gothic Line" at lunch trying to pin down a more definitive answer. Khaki in the summer and wool battledress in winter looks like a good rule of thumb for the infantry, although I did see pictures of canadian troops wearing wool battledress in summer. I still have not found an answer for AFV crews, wool battledress in winter makes sense, but in summer the few photos I have seen show crews wearing either the battledress and short sleeve khakis. I would think wearing short sleeve khakis, like the commonwealth early war AFV uniforms probably makes the most sense in a non-air conditioned tank in the hot italian summer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by JC_Hare: I leafed through Zuelkhe's books Hmm, check out the reviews of Liri Valley at www.amazon.com some time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewTF Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by Darknight_Canuck: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AndrewTF: Maybe someone who knows more can help further, but I think at this point it's a matter of personal preference. The one error in my KD battledress mod is that the sleeve insignia should probably be on shoulder slips, but I think that's a minor quibble. I've seen examples of the insignia being sewn directly onto the KD and of the insignia being placed on removeable pieces of cloth that hung down from the shoulder straps (can't remember the name of this at the moment), so you aren't wrong either way. I have not ever seen Canadian insignia on shoulder strap loops. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted June 15, 2004 Author Share Posted June 15, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JC_Hare: I leafed through Zuelkhe's books Hmm, check out the reviews of Liri Valley at www.amazon.com some time. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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