CMx2 and ammo selection.

[Bogdan]

Hi all,

(I hope I won't beat a dead horse with this subject, but some threads about CMx2 possibilities are sooo long that I can't remember if it has been treated already. Sorry if it is)

As CMx2 will probably handle infantry squads and crews in a "1:1 mode", I'm curious about the possiblity to also handle the ammo selection for AFV and artillery pieces.

HE, AP, smoke are common types of rounds for guns. In the actual CM serie, during an engagement, the firing unit seems to automatically select the good ammo for the selected target, without any delay. As soon as a tank engages infantry, it chooses HE, it then engages a tank, it chooses AP... ...I tend to think that the loaded ammo magically switches between AP and HE in the tube :confused:

It's hard to explain it in my bad english : why not alloying the player to select the ammo type for his guns/AFV... It could create some frightening situation, where a T-34, loaded with HE, suddenly encounter a Panzer...! What can he do : fire the HE, reload an AP round ?

[Loeffe]

This is an interesting issue, and I'm sure most of the people here would love to be able to control those sorts of things when playing.

However, game designers must at some point draw a line, as to how advanced the options/order system should be, even for a high-realism game like CM - Mainly to keep "playability" and not have way too steep a learning curve for beginners.

I stumbled over a discussion of this issue at Gamespot, in a preview for upcoming "Wartime Command" (read it here http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/wartimecommand/preview_2865016.html )

It seems they will make a basic orders system "for dummies", which can be expanded with more advanced options (such as ammo type to load) for vets. Maybe such a thing could also be incorporated in CMX2(?)

To qoute from the article/interview:

"... we found some tricks how to make two games in one. Hard-core players and history fans will find challenging missions, full realism, 100 percent historical accuracy, detailed unit management, and many other nice details. However, casual gamers will have many helpful AI options available, and they can play the game without caring what ammunition a tank should fire against soft [nonarmored] targets or which soldier to assign to a specific unit. "

//url edited

[flamingknives]

'For dummies' hasn't yet been part of the CM experience, FWIW.

I think it more likely that shells will be chosen by the AI, following national procedures. For instance, in WWII, Canadian armour crews were instructed to have an HE round loaded, although troop commanders were permitted to load AP or smoke. From what I've read, carrying HE loaded was pretty common - you can at least distract anything with it.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

in WWII, Canadian armour crews were instructed to have an HE round loaded, although troop commanders were permitted to load AP or smoke. From what I've read, carrying HE loaded was pretty common - you can at least distract anything with it.

Hey, if you're referring to the SOPs I posted, that was only one regiment!

[flamingknives]

Yes, I was. Best add 'some' in front of 'Canadian' then.

For the rest of the CW, HE up the spout was the norm, unless they were specifically hunting tanks. AFAICT, naturally.

[wunwinglow]

But wouldn't the crews themselves be trained to make this sort of decision for themselves? If the game puts you in charge of say a battalion, you are not going to be micro managing what any particular tank has loaded at any particular time, are you? This is a command game, not a tank simulator.

And surely the quickest way to unload a tank gun is to fire it, then you can get the correct type of round on its way straight after. If you think a snap shot is likely, you would load whatever was appropriate for the enemy you expected to encounter. What else could you do?

Tim P

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

For instance, in WWII, Canadian armour crews were instructed to have an HE round loaded, although troop commanders were permitted to load AP or smoke. From what I've read, carrying HE loaded was pretty common - you can at least distract anything with it.

Interesting point, but to select and control the ammo loading for each tank and/or gun you've got on a battlefield would be a nightmare of micro-management ! I cannot imagine what would have been my last PBEM game, where I had 5 Pz IVG, 4 SPW 251/9 and 4 PSW 222...!

Of course, the human player would not have to select carrefully, for each unit, after each round fired, what to load next in the main gun. I suppose the AI could easely handle that management, taking in consideration the various disciplines of fire, for each army. As far as I know, it was very common to systematically load an HE round "by default" in the gun.

But, in some occasions, the human player might want to select a specific type of round for this tank here, or these guns there, just because he's trying to set up an ambush against a specific kind of target. This sort of micro-management could create some interesting situation as, we all know, everything could happen in a battle, and especially something we didn't expect !

I played some tank simulations before (Panzer Commander and Panzer Elite) and selecting the good ammo depending of your task and the particular tactical situation was an important part of the game. The problem in CM is here : the tanks and guns have always, miraculously, the right ammo at the right moment ! If Cmx2 can handle this detail, it could have great consequences during a tank duel for example : your tank suddenly encounter another tank, you promptly fire what you've load in the gun before ! Unfortunatelly, it was an HE round... ...what can happen next ?