AI's ability to nail my AT gun.

[Blah Blah Blah]

I am getting very disheartened at the AI's ability to nail my AT gun.

Basically the AI instantly knows where my gun is, not even a discernable pause.

A well hidden AT gun in amongst the trees should be very hard to see.

As it is now, if you do not get the kill in 3 shots you can kiss you AT gun goodbye.

This sucks..... Especially as I have already ordered the game

[Kwazydog]

Blah, I had have very good success with the 50mm AT gun on Line of Defense, usually killing 2 or 3 vehicles with it, sometimes more.

I would suggest picking off vehicles as soon as they come into site...dont wait until there are several in view or they will be ale to take it out pretty quickly with combined fire. Also its origional position might not be the best available...try experimenting. Ive found that I can usualy get 2-3 shots of from it if spotted and if you pick your target well it should alreade be dead

Dan

[ November 28, 2003, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Monty]

When you play in the full game, you will have terrains (especially in Italy ) where you can set up your guns in "key-hole" positions.

This means the gun has only a limited line of fire (los),so when an enemy vehicle will enter this los, he is likely to be doomed, but other vehicles cant hurt the gun.

Disadvantage of this tactic is you are not certain enemy vehicles WILL enter the los of the gun.

Also, when you will fire at long distance, the enemy or a.i. wont have an ID of the gun or maybe a sound conctact which is not very precise.

When you open fire at medium or short distance, the enemy will get an ID and the gun will be dead quickly, when a few enemy units have los on the gun.

Experienced players will lead the attack with some light tanks, so you have to make a choice to attack the leading light tanks or wait for the juicy fat tanks (if you have a gun which can knock out heavy tanks, wait for the heavy ones)

Monty

[Joachim]

Other ways to improve your ATGs performance (from CMBB):

Use covered arcs to prevent them firing.

Set target manually. Check the hit prob, the kill prob and how long the target will remain in sight. With a 5cm ATG, you probably want side shots. Hit probs below 30% are no good, excpet many on one. If the "Kill" is less than OK or good, ignore the target.

Hide your gun.

Put a bonus HQ in command. The HQ does the spotting, the gun unhides just before firing. Combat bonus increases hit prob, stealth for hiding (though a blast will give away your position anyway), morale for not pinning or routing

Keep infantry "eyes" away from your gun (use MG fire, arty etc). Strip the inf from the tanks.

Put the gun behind a crest or wall (the enemy will often hit the ground in front of you). If you choose the location right, a pinned or hiding gun has 0% exposure, often allwoing to hide again after a few shots.

Set a covered arc and try to hide when you fear lots of incoming in the next turn. ... though not vs humans, they'll use area fire.

A great position is behind a crest with no viz to the valley before you but with good viz to the slope leading into the valley. You can score top hits and negate slope effects as the armor is facing downwards. Plus the nearby "eyes" in the valley can't see you - only those in the slope further back, negating the effect of leading light tanks or infantry scouts.

Avoid placing on likely avenues of approach. Set up so you get flank shots on those routes.

Leave the light armor to 20mm AA from way back.

Surprise is your element. Even at 2:1 points rates you can often trade an ATG for a single medium tank. Wait till you have a sure shot.

Numbers count. Either use a Pak Front or unhide your Pak when your armor opens up.

Possible plan:

Targets sighted in favorable positions.

Order small rotate command to ATG so it faces away from targets. This is just to make sure it opens up 15-20 secs into the turn after the tanks arrive.

Order tanks forward with hunt command, so they arrive just before the gun opens up. Next turn the gun hides, hoping all tanks target your tanks. The tanks reverse out of sight.

Some AAR to show "Timing is important!" and the AIs problems with handling well-used ATGs.

For CMBB there is the GD Romanian defence scenario. 30+tanks vs 2 Pak40, a few StuKas and some 'schrecks. Both PaK in trenches behind a crest. The crest blocking some LOS, but most routes had to cross LOS somewhere. Detailed info about attacker in the briefing. The ATGs opened up on the first 8 tanks at 1200m+, killing some. Then they went on hide. Some incoming rounds were ignored due to hide, covered arcs and the best HQs were detached to the ATGs.

Bulk of enemy armor appeared. StuKas heard above. Targetted OB mortars on tanks. After the first StuKa attack and a chaos leading to closed hatches and tanks moving in all directions, cancelled the OB mortars and used HMGs to close the last hatches. ATGs opened up with LOS to only a few tanks. Next turn saw me shooting, but when too many tanks came into sight, the ATGs went on hide again. StuKa attacks. ATGs open up. StuKas attack. Too many T34 in sight - keep hiding.

The AI bunches up the armor, allowing for many on one. But once you acquired one target, the next targets range is known. Thus you get several first shot hits.

Final score was 14 tanks for one ATG. It was destroyed, but the crew was unharmed. The other one got 9 tanks and stayed alive, but with one battle casualty. Some close moments when enemy arty went for one of the guns. From AAR map it seems an early StuKa bomb had killed an FO.

StuKas were not that effective. But many shocked crews, closed hatches and immo'd tanks. The latter were easy targets and often bailed on the next threat.

HTH

Gruß

Joachim

[Little_Black_Devil]

Like any defensive asset, site in defilade to produce enfilading fire.

For those not familliar with the terms;

Defilade - is to arrange defensive assets and or fortifications so as to protect the lines from frontal or enfilading fire and the interior from fire from above or behind

Enfilade - is gunfire directed from a flanking position along the length of an enemy battle line.

Basically, don't try and cover the whole map with one anti-tank gun.

Technically, as in terms of penetration, the gun may be capeable of killing all tanks accross the entire range of the map (terrain permitting). However, the problem, is that if more than one enemy tank appear at a given time - those that you are not firing at, will start shooting at you. Law of probability would seem to indicate that you are more likely to die faster if this occurs.

If you select a portion of the map, and ideally, use the terrain to cut yourself off from the rest of the map, you have in effect protected your flanks and limited the field of fire that your gun will engage in. You have also concurrently limited the space in which more numerous enemy tanks can now appear. This also assumes you have additional assets covering other arcs of fire around you - to protect you from any would-bne flanking units OR that terrain makes flanking you unfeasible.

Siting in defilade to produice enfilading fire has a tendancy to make multiple targets more manageable, as they are usually fed in less simultaneous numbers - hopefully through cannalizing or "funneling" terrain.

It also means, that aside from indirect fire - the only direct fire you need worry about, is going to potentially be coming from the relatively small chunk of ground you are covering with this one gun.

Now of course, this can be improved upon further, by additional defensive assets - sited in depth, perhaps augmented by obstacles (and remember - obstacles are only obstacles if they are covered by fire).

Ideally all units are able to provide some semblance of interlocking fire; though sometimes this is not always practical depending on the terrain and situation.

Using your anti-tank guns in this manner, ensures that they are sited so that they enemy has to come to you, under conditions favourable to you so your one gun, (or otherwise limited assets) can engage the enemy at what is hopefully a "comfortable" rate under good odds.

In any event - siting your guns in defilade to produce enfilading fire is probably the surest way to maximize your kill ratio while safeguarding the survival of your gun as best it can be.

The only "tough call" you have to make, is siting the gun (or guns) - which likely means you are going to have to pick a limited area to defend - as opposed to defending your entire frontage. However, when you're on the defensive, your objective is anihiliating your enemy and holding the key terrain (flags, prominent features) - you need not worry so much about maintainng coverage of your entire frontage and spreading your limited resources too thin.

Hope that made sense and helped.

[Mr. Tittles]

Havent read the whole thread but getting the armor to button up is vital. Using arty to botton them up also adds dust which blinds them. Use HMG to button up several close tanks. Give a covered arc to the MG that encompasses all the tanks that are bunched up. Quick short bursts will get the hatches clanking. The MG will then cease fire on its own.

If the gun gets spotted, and is in a good order, give him a hide order and then go to work on all those who are spotting him. A good HQ with stealth always helps.

[Blah Blah Blah]

Thank you for your replies.

I set the AT gun with only 1 LOS of approx 30-50 across the crest at a range of 450 to 480 metres.

I will try various things suggested to ensure that it is as I think it is.

[The Green Rascal]

If you want an alternative method here's another one. I recently put 10 76mm Russian guns on a hill and in trenches with a superb commander. The map was wide open, visibility excellent. When the enemy were all in sight I opened up with everything at once.

Hilarious (for me anyway) carnage ensues. 22 enemy tanks/afv's destroyed in under two minutes. No return casualties were suffered at all.

An extreme example, but I'm basically saying that you need to use mass and numbers of guns together, or use the keyhole method if you only have very few guns. They are lethal if used right. BTW you can probably only use the above method against a PBEM opponent once, but it'll be worth it for the impact and comedy value

[Edit] No-one has mentioned leaders. A really vital component to a good AT gun defense is having a big morale bonus leader in command, as the crews will stay longer at their guns and not get pinned under counter fire. A good morale bonus leader and trenches will usually mean that the enemy needs a direct hit.

After morale bonuses, look for combat (helps you hit) and stealth (staying hidden, useful on some maps) in that order. Seperate him from his existing command if you have to, in order to get him in charge of the guns.

[ November 28, 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: The Green Rascal ]