Canadian VC winner scenario now on TPG for Playtesting

[Mad Russian]

The scenario VC1-Casa Berardi is now available at The Proving Grounds for playtest. It depicts the December 1943 battle, in which the Canadian Captain Paul Triquet, wins the Victoria Cross.

I just finished playing it and even though I took the major objective I was given a Minor Defeat. Tough little fight.

Panther Commander

[Michael Dorosh]

Very nice map; I posted some other initial reactions at the Proving Grounds - nothing major, haven't played it yet obviously. Good briefing too.

MINOR SPOILER

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Bear in mind - and I'll mention this here because it was brought up in the patch request thread (by me ) - Canadians never used Churchills in Italy. The Ontario Regiment (11th Canadian Armoured Regiment) which is depicted in your scenario, used Shermans exclusively in the Italian campaign.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Bear in mind - and I'll mention this here because it was brought up in the patch request thread (by me ) - Canadians never used Churchills in Italy. The Ontario Regiment (11th Canadian Armoured Regiment) which is depicted in your scenario, used Shermans exclusively in the Italian campaign.

Well, in this case, adding the Churchills may have been to help with converting some old CMBO scenarios over to CMAK play. I really don't care why BFC included them, but, I for one will take them. Wish the Cromwell had come over too!

Panther Commander

[Michael Dorosh]

The bonus is that Dieppe scenarios can now feature Canadian crewed Churchills of the Calgary Regiment (14th CTR), I suppose. No one else in the Canadian Army ever used them in action.

[Old Warmonger]

This scenario has been updated with the Churchills replaced with Shermans which should help the Canadian attack.

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The bonus is that Dieppe scenarios can now feature Canadian crewed Churchills of the Calgary Regiment (14th CTR), I suppose. No one else in the Canadian Army ever used them in action.

I don't know about that, I talked to a veteran (who was a memeber of the Highlander Regiment from Victoria) over the the holidays and he talked about seeing some Churchills, in the Breskens Pocket, but they were Churchill crocs. He didn't serve in Italy at all though so that may not matter. They could have been British tanks attached to the Canadian forces at the time though.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Panzerman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The bonus is that Dieppe scenarios can now feature Canadian crewed Churchills of the Calgary Regiment (14th CTR), I suppose. No one else in the Canadian Army ever used them in action.

I don't know about that, I talked to a veteran (who was a memeber of the Highlander Regiment from Victoria) over the the holidays and he talked about seeing some Churchills, in the Breskens Pocket, but they were Churchill crocs. He didn't serve in Italy at all though so that may not matter. They could have been British tanks attached to the Canadian forces at the time though. </font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The bonus is that Dieppe scenarios can now feature Canadian crewed Churchills of the Calgary Regiment (14th CTR), I suppose. No one else in the Canadian Army ever used them in action.

But are they the right Churchills for Dieppe?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The bonus is that Dieppe scenarios can now feature Canadian crewed Churchills of the Calgary Regiment (14th CTR), I suppose. No one else in the Canadian Army ever used them in action.

But are they the right Churchills for Dieppe? </font>

[Allan Wotherspoon]

Mk II Churchills had the 76mm gun in the turret and the 2 pdr in the hull.

Allan

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Allan Wotherspoon:

Mk II Churchills had the 76mm gun in the turret and the 2 pdr in the hull.

Allan

76?

Edit - ah, I looked through an old reference - a 3-inch howitzer was used on the Mk I, and the Mk II replaced the 3-inch with a bow MG. Most Mk IIs were - according to the source - rebuilt as Mk III or IV, or else sent to the Russians.

[ January 10, 2004, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Allan Wotherspoon]

Sorry, my mistake. I meant the 3in (76mm) howitzer.

There is some confusion between the marks. Some of the reference stuff I have says that the Mk. 2 replaced the 3in howitzer with a second BESA. Others say that this is actually the Mk 1a and that the Mk. 2 swapped the 2pdr and the 3in.

Allan

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Allan Wotherspoon:

Sorry, my mistake. I meant the 3in (76mm) howitzer.

There is some confusion between the marks. Some of the reference stuff I have says that the Mk. 2 replaced the 3in howitzer with a second BESA. Others say that this is actually the Mk 1a and that the Mk. 2 swapped the 2pdr and the 3in.

Allan

Thanks for the info!

[Allan Wotherspoon]

And still another reference calls the replacement of the 3in howitzer with the Besa the Mk 2 and the model with the 3in howitzer in the turret and the 2pdr in the hull the Mk 2CS.

Anyone know the definitive answer? :confused:

[Mark Gallear]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

They would have been British tanks from the British 79th Armoured Division, most likely - the majority of "funnies" in NW Europe were attached to that division, including most (all?) Crocodiles. The 79th lent support where needed, to British, American or Canadian units on request. The Kangaroos of the two APC regiments (one British, one Canadian) were also attached to 79th Armoured Division. [/QB]

No the 79th served in NW Europe, 2 RTR was in 1945 converted to this role and got the specialist Churchill Crocs, Wasps and Kangaroos.

I still think there is a possibility that Churchills were used by Canadian troops on Sicily. I have a book that says they did.

[ January 12, 2004, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Mark Gallear]

Originally posted by Allan Wotherspoon:

And still another reference calls the replacement of the 3in howitzer with the Besa the Mk 2 and the model with the 3in howitzer in the turret and the 2pdr in the hull the Mk 2CS.

Anyone know the definitive answer? :confused:

My understanding is that all the Churchills at Dieppe were Churchill Is.

On the Churchill II - they ran out of 3" Howitzer so some Churchill Is were made with Besa in the hull rather than the 3". These were termed Churchill II. Far as I am aware, none were ever used in combat. They were probably all later converted to Churchill III standard.

The Churchill I was used as a CS tank of two per squadron to give HE support and termed Churchill I CS in this role in the late Desert war and Italy.

Churchill II CS has the 2pdr in the hull and the 3" in the turret. This would make it more useful as a CS tank as the gun delivering the HE has got a wider arc and can fire it from hull down.

I would prefer my CS tanks in this form but all the Italian CS Churchills are described as Churchill I CS. I have come across the description but no battle account so as far as I know none were actually used in this form. Unless of course somebody knows of an Italian Battle account with a description of the 3” in the turret?

Almost definitive .

[ January 12, 2004, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

They would have been British tanks from the British 79th Armoured Division, most likely - the majority of "funnies" in NW Europe were attached to that division, including most (all?) Crocodiles. The 79th lent support where needed, to British, American or Canadian units on request. The Kangaroos of the two APC regiments (one British, one Canadian) were also attached to 79th Armoured Division.

No the 79th served in NW Europe, 2 RTR was in 1945 converted to this role and got the specialist Churchill Crocs, Wasps and Kangaroos.

I still think there is a possibility that Churchills were used by Canadian troops on Sicily. I have a book that says they did. [/QB]</font>

[Mark Gallear]

Ok, got confussed over theatres.

"Also in Sicily were the Churchills of the 1st Canadian Army Tank Brigade (the Ontario Regiment; Three Rivers Regiment; and Calgary Regiment)."

Tank Battles in Miniature 4 A Wargamer's guide to the Mediterranean Campaign 1943-1945

Donald Featherstone 1977 (He was in 51st Royal Tank Regiment in Italy and seems to know what he is on about.)

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Ok, got confussed over theatres.

"Also in Sicily were the Churchills of the 1st Canadian Army Tank Brigade (the Ontario Regiment; Three Rivers Regiment; and Calgary Regiment)."

Tank Battles in Miniature 4 A Wargamer's guide to the Mediterranean Campaign 1943-1945

Donald Featherstone 1977 (He was in 51st Royal Tank Regiment in Italy and seems to know what he is on about.)

Feh. We all know wargamers know nothing about history.

Just posted on my own board; Churchills were not used by any Canadian units in Sicily or Italy; by the time 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade got there, they were Sherman mounted. This is borne out by photographic records and regimental histories.

They were previously known as 1st Canadian Tank Brigade or somefink and did have Churchills on inventory. They also trained on Lees, Rams and all kinds of good stuff. They didn't take any of them into action, just the Sherman.

Incidentally, the North Irish Horse of the British Army did support Canadian units during the Hitler Line battles (IIRC) and afterwards were permitted to add the maple leaf insignia to their Churchill tanks as means of recognition by the Canadians for their support during that battle.