Brent Pollock Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 ..but a dug in Wespe doesn't seem to lose it? I'm guilty of not checking the manual on this one, but I am flummoxed as to why: 1. a dug in StuG IIIG would lose its cover arc/armor from one orders phase to the next... 2. but a dug in Wespe, in the same PBEM match, wouldn't lose its Cover Arc/Armor setting? No enemy units were spotted, nor were the StuGs brought under fire....they just seem to accept the order in the Orders Phase of the PBEM, then had lost it when the movie rolled around. It was also gone at the start of the next Orders Phase. The Wespes did not exhibit this behaviour. Maybe once I get home and remember to read the section in the manual...or get the PDF loaded on my drive here at work ...all will become clear. In the meantime, it seems to have all the body parts of a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimthane Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Originally posted by Brent Pollock: I am flummoxed as to why: 1. a dug in StuG IIIG would lose its cover arc/armor from one orders phase to the next... 2. but a dug in Wespe, in the same PBEM match, wouldn't lose its Cover Arc/Armor setting? User error? Easy to hit J by mistake. Of course if you had saved the orders and could repeat the effect... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 My guess is the turret is hull down, no LOS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Even if there is no LOS it should not lose the cover arc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Is it a green StuG that has lost it's command? Conscript vehicles can't have a cover arc and green units must be in command to have it, I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Try the test again, but this time give the StuG as narrow an arc as possible. The StuG's gun had a traverse of only 25 degrees (not sure if that is from center or full traverse), and just maybe your arc was much bigger than the gun could cover. Just a guess. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Originally posted by Kingfish: Try the test again, but this time give the StuG as narrow an arc as possible. The StuG's gun had a traverse of only 25 degrees (not sure if that is from center or full traverse), and just maybe your arc was much bigger than the gun could cover. Just a guess. I'm not sure that should effect anything. I have given cover arcs of 180° to AT guns. They simply shift their bearing (slowly) if they spot a target outside their traverse. Why shouldn't a StuG do the same? I suspect that either Grimthane or j2d is closest to the right answer. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 I posted turret but what I mean is that turretless AFVs have their gun where the hull would be on a turreted tank. You get the warning "hull down MG blocked" , do you get a similar warning for StuGs? Can dug in turretless AFVs rotate to target? If you dig in a turret tank, only the turret rotates to target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Ah, that's a point. I forgot that BP started out by saying it was dug in. Yeah, giving it a CA outside its traverse range might not stick in that case. That takes us back to Kingfish's suggestion of a narrower CA, and center it straight ahead of the vehicle. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 A turretless AFV, once dug-in, is forever locked in that facing. It loses its rotate command. I just ran a small test to see if it had to do with the size of the arc. Started out with one Wespe and StuG were dug-in. I first gave the StuG a CA of about 30 meters distance, starting 45 degrees from its left front fender and arcing to 45 degrees off its right. CA immediately disappeared when I hit Go. Them tried with armor-only arc. Same parameters, same results. Next I doubled the distance to about 55-60 meters, but instead of 45 degrees I lined it up with the left hand tracks, so the corner of the arc is no farther out than the left side of the vehicle. I swung the arc over and accepted the smallest default width the computer gave me. Result - covered arc stayed throughout the game, both regular and armor-only. I tried the same with the Wespe, but could not get it to keep an arc no matter how far, near, wide or narrow I drew it. Therefore, when a vehicle is dug-in the arc is limited to the traverse of the gun. This renders turretless AFVs useless to all but the smallest keyholes. You'd be better off placing an AT gun in a trench. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Pollock Posted May 31, 2005 Author Share Posted May 31, 2005 Kingfish's narrow arc seems like it is likely the answer, but I don't understand why his Wespe wouldn't keep its arc as it does not jibe with my results. In my PBEM match, both Wespen keep their arcs, but the StuGs lose it. The StuGs losing their arcs in the PBEM match are not Green, nor Conscript (and wouldn't even show one in the first place if they were the latter, nor would it come up on their command list). Ditto for the Wespen, which are also dug in. All units were given the maximum arc (distance & width), centred on their dug in facing, so I don't know why each Wespe seems content to keep its arc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 I think in CMX2 tanks should be able to move out of their dug in positions, with reverse 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Pollock Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 ...uh...yes...as I'm sure we all do...and would like to see dug outs & fallback dug outs that we can set up empty, then reposition into...but that's just a tad off-topic. It seems that the width of the arc was causing the problem, as suggested by Kingfish's data. I narrowed the arcs on the StuGs down to something pretty close to their actual arc, and now they are holding the cover arc command quite well...I count this as a minor, minor, minor bug, that I am certain never popped up during playtesting (I mean really, ask yourself, just how often do you use dug in AFVs, let alone turretless ones?). I continue to be baffled as to why the Wespen, [also turretless, for those who need reminding] which have the full 180 degree arc, have not experienced this problem..."issues" with restricted LOS, perhaps? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Brent Pollock: I continue to be baffled as to why the Wespen, [also turretless, for those who need reminding] which have the full 180 degree arc, have not experienced this problem..."issues" with restricted LOS, perhaps? It is somewhat curious. Have you tested to see what a dug-in Wespe does when an enemy vehicle enters it's covered arc but outside its range of traverse? If it should take a shot (not likely, but bear with me here), that would be a very serious bug. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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