Paper and Practice: Russian Recon in 1941

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by JasonC:

German recon doctrine was not matched by heavy equipment for it until much later one, themselves. They eventually had recon battalions in half tracks with armored cars, a heavy weapons section with gun armed HTs etc. But not in 1941.

[...]

The Germans did have a light armor force in the early war, but it was thin armored cars with 20mm main armament, and light tanks (Pz IIs e.g.) that were off in the panzer regiments, not in the recon formations. Those scouted for the tanks, tactically. But finding where the enemy was on the road net, exploring all routes etc, was done by ACs and motorcycle infantry, the same as the Russians were using.

Right. That makes perfect sense. Leaves only one question which I think I can answer myself. How often did the respective forces have armoured cars available to them.

Judging by the changes made to the July 1941 TO&E I would say that reality was a far cry from the ambitious documents of April. In fact, only a few months after the recon battalion was to have an armoured component the July TO&E left only a bare bones rifle company equipped with a mix of SMGs and rifles.

It seems likely that these armoured cars and tankettes suffered one of three fates. One, they never made it into infantry formations at all. Two, they were stripped to provide recon for the new mechanized formations just before the German invasion (the most likely possibility IMO) or three (also quite possible) they were concentrated in the border divisions and were efficiently destroyed within 2 weeks. Possibilities 1 and 2 are interchangeable because in either case these armoured cars were a memory by August.

BTW, when I say armoured cars I am apparently referring to BA-10s and 20s (or sometimes the BA-6).

The BA-6 had 8-9mm of armour and was armed with 2 7.62mm MGs and a 45mm gun capable of firing AP or HE shells.

The BA-10 was an updated version of the BA-6 and was armed with a 45mm gun and a single 7.62mm MG. Armour was thickened by 1mm to a total of 10mm.

The BA-20 had lighter armour (6mm) and was armed with a single 7.62mm MG.

German armoured cars of the time are comparable in armour thickness but cannot compare with the 45mm gun of the Russian vehicles. This weapon was simply much more effective when firing AP or HE rounds.

All other things being equal the Russian armoured cars were more than competitive. Unfortunately, all other things were not equal (no radios/poor leadership/bad logistics) and accordingly these vehicles suffered badly in the 1941 campaign. Prewar BA-10s, for example, were not replaced after almost all of them were lost in June-July.

Cheers

Paul

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

My point in raising this is that skillful recon of the second type may have been one of the things that the Red Army was shy of at the beginning of the war, but acquired as time went on. Certainly by 1944 they seem to have been very good at it, and probably sooner than that.

The achievement of air parity and later air superiority also helped in this, as you had more pieces to fill the jigsaw puzzle with.

[Andreas]

Just as an aside:

German recon battalion, infantry divisions of 1. and 2. Welle:

Battalion HQ

1 Horse Squadron (they were from the cavalry arm, hence squadrons, and it would be commanded by a Rittmeister).

1 Bicycle Squadron

1 Heavy Squadron

Weapons in the heavy squadron included HMG, IG18, Pak35/36. The Abteilung also had 3 light armoured vehicles, either German or captured (e.g. Panhard).

All in all this was a mini-Kampfgruppe that could look after itself for a bit.

[flamingknives]

While the 45mm gun may have been more powerful than the 20mm cannon of the German cars, my money would be on the jerries in a fight. The 20mm fires so much faster and is more than a match for Soviet ACs. In any case, engaging the enemy isn't really what a scout car is for - they just need sufficient firepower to scare off the opposing recon.

[jacobs_ladder2]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

While the 45mm gun may have been more powerful than the 20mm cannon of the German cars, my money would be on the jerries in a fight. The 20mm fires so much faster and is more than a match for Soviet ACs. In any case, engaging the enemy isn't really what a scout car is for - they just need sufficient firepower to scare off the opposing recon.

In a purely armoured match. The 45mm, however, was much more effective against infantry. I would still give more than the edge to the Germans throughout 1941-42, but not because of the higher firing rate of the 20mm. I would give them the edge because of far superior C&C on every level. Russian armoured vehicles pretty much fought on their own or in bunched up groups/easy targets.

I wish I could post the picture I have of a burned out group of a company of T-26 tanks. They are all within a 40-50m rectangle in wide open ground. Turrets are turned perpendicular to the bodies. Side armour and turret penetrations, probably, every last one. An entire company knocked out before they could even turn to face their opponents. Ouch.

Cheers

Paul