Kingfish Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 For Op Luttich the 2nd Panzer division was divided into 2 seperate KGs, with the northern one advancing via the St. Barthelemy-Belle Fontaine-Le Mesnil-Tove axis. Does anyone know what the OOB of this KG? I know that the 1st SS Reconnaisance battalion under Gustav Knittel was part of it, and because of this it was sometimes referred to as KG Knittel, although I'm not entirely sure he was in overall command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Some confusion apparently. 1SS sent its armored group to support the Mortain counterattack. Initially its wheeled elements remained in the British sector. The balance of Panzergrenadier regiment 2, 2 motorized battalions, were sent to hold the positions it gained, arriving after the peak fighting period. Throughout, all 1SS formations fighting in the operation were subordinate to 2nd Panzer division, since the 1SS division HQ remained in the Brit sector. The specific subunits of 1SS sent were both battalions of the Panzer regiment, still strong, with 57 Panthers in the first and 46 Panzer IVs in the second. Plus as armored infantry, the lone armored Pz Gdr battalion, III/2 Pz Gdr under Kuhlmann, the Pz Aufklarung battalion under Knittel (with 2 Pz Aufk aka infantry type companies in SPW, plus Pz Spl and weapons), and the single armored pioneer company. The SP arty battalion and the Flak battalion were also sent, entire. These armored 1SS forces were divided into the 2 named KGs based on the armored infantry formation providing the main manpower. The tanks were also divided, with the Panther battalion (plus 7 Panzer IVs for some reason) going with Knittel and the recon, while the bulk of the Panzer IVs went with Kuhlmann. I have not seen anything on which the armored pioneers went with, but it Knittel is more likely, acting as a third infantry type company. The Flak was probably divided, the SPA either divided or close enough to support either. It is also quite possible they all supported one while 2nd Panzer equivalents supported the other prong. These KGs refer to those 1SS attachments to 2nd Panzer, not directly to 2nd Panzer's own organic units in the operation. But 2nd Panzer attacked along just 2 axes, not 4. With a 3rd KG initially left out of battle (LOB) awaiting 116 Panzer tanks. 2nd Panzer was considerably reduced in tank strength by this point, and well over half the armor was from 1SS. Specifically, 2nd Panzer is reported to have had 60 tanks and 15 Jagds left operational before the attack. I don't have a breakdown on the tank types, but the Panthers were much more depleted than the IVs, because of earlier fighting on the Brit sector. The likely mix is 15-20 Panther, 40-45 Panzer IV, and the 15 Jadgs. 2nd Panzer had the following numerical fighting strengths in its infantry component units - 820 men in 2nd Panzergrenadier Regiment, 760 men in 304th Panzergrenadier Regiment, 360 men in the Recon battalion and 280 in the engineer battalion. One battalion in each of the 2 Pz Gdr regiments was armored. The recon battalion had 2 Pz Aukl companies and the pioneer battalion one company. These were probably the components used in the initial attack. The two motorized Pz Gdr battalions were probably the portions initially LOB, which were waiting for tank support from 116th Panzer, which did not link up with them in time to jump off with the others. It is not clear where the Jagds were, but the typical practice at this time would pair them with the (organic, 2nd Panzer) Pz Aufk battalion. So all told there were roughly 70-75 Panthers, 85-90 Panzer IVs, and 15 Jagds, supporting the equivalent of 5 battalions of Pz Gdrs, all of them armored. These were split over the two prongs of 2nd Panzer's portion of the attack. The prong Knittel was with was the Panther heavy one (3/4 of those available). Effectively, the reinforcement by 1SS allowed a full strength PD style of attack, with (effectively) a fully armored Panzer grenadier force. While the motorized balance of 2nd Panzer and the later arrivals from 1SS effectively made a second PDs worth of motorized infantry behind the first wave. There is some guesswork in this, but the basic picture is right. YMMV. [ February 24, 2007, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawaiku Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I gotta ask ya JasonC. Do you pull this off the top of your head or do you have all your books, documents, etc... sitting on your desk? 'Cuz your info is really somethin(including all of your other threads). Kingfish, I found some brief info on Feldgrau and Axis History Fact Book, but they weren't much.BTW are there any good books on this offensive/battle? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Frankly, in this specific case it was mostly hotlist and google-fu (lol). With a little ordinary old time grogishness from wargames past. Axis military history forum had some, the German OOB in Normandy site had some complementary items, some I already knew from studying Mortain years ago (making scenarios for ASL and the like). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawaiku Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Hehe makes sense. That's funny because nearly half of the links I got on google were from wargaming websites lol. Imagine if our community got together to create a site that was all history and facts about WWII! It would be somethin. Also your post about the 2nd SS makes alota sense because I found quite a few links about them and Luttich. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Kingfish and JasonC, Here's a recent Mortain study, VICTORY AT MORTAIN, which may save you a lot of grief. Excerpts appear to be most impressive. http://stonebooks.com/archives/020602.shtml Regards, John Kettler [ February 25, 2007, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 25, 2007 Author Share Posted February 25, 2007 Jason, Thanks for the info. Quick question: Originally posted by JasonC: The tanks were also divided, with the Panther battalion (plus 7 Panzer IVs for some reason) going with Knittel and the recon, while the bulk of the Panzer IVs went with Kuhlmann. Are you sure about this? I've seen several references that state the 1st SS Panthers stayed with Kuhlman (since he was commander of this battalion anyway) and were commited along the St.Barthelemy-La Rossaye-La Vallee-Juvigny axis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Kingfish - no you are right. Kuhlmann is the Panther commander. Knittel's recce battalion apparently led and they trailed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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